The Sinews of War, French Channel Port, 1917

[Nearholmer]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

The LB&SCR were still commissioning paddle steamers in the late 1890s, and again in 1911, but for the short crossing to the Isle of Wight along with the LSWR (they co-owner a joint stretch of line on the island to connect to this service). 

I clearly recall going to the IoW on a paddle steamer, and on a spanking new hovercraft, not sure whether we went out on one and back on the other, or whether it was separate trips, but it does seem odd that both were in service simultaneously. IIRC, the PS was coal-fired, but I’m pretty sure the hovercraft wasn’t.

 

PS(!): just checked and PS Ryde was in service 1937-69, with a spell as HMS Ryde during the war, including participating in D-Day. Her sister was PS Sandown,  launched 1934, withdrawn 1966, which led the flotilla to Dunkirk. I believe that their SR crews transferred to the navy and back with them, which is quite something.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

On 27/11/2022 at 12:27, Northroader said:

This list might help in planning your rolling stock build/ acquisition, as it lists all the war department wagons, in part a load of wagons borrowed from the British main line companies, plus a series of new build specially ordered by the W.D., such as the “Saltley” wagons Stephen has commented on.

 

 

This is absolutely fascinating and invaluable, thank you.

 

When I read "1001 - 3000, Private, open, 10 & 12 tons, oil and grease axles boxes", I thought of this illustration:

 

 

Should be capable of being derived from a Slaters or Cambrian Kits PO wagon, with oil boxes, extended solebars etc.

 

[Nearholmer]

Railway-owned PSs we’re ‘called-up’ during WW1 as well, Scottish and possibly GER ones I think, so maybe you could have a boat painted one side for peace and the other war. Usable on this layout and CA.

[Northroader]

The illustration you give, James, would be for a special WD build 12ton open in the 30001-31100 series, as it has the extended frames to accommodate the brakeman’s cabin (vigie) The 1001-3000 series ex PO wagons wouldn’t have the longer frames, but that’s not to say a model kit for one would be a simple basis for doing one with a vigie, as in your illustration.

 

p.s. To take Kevin’s story forward, here’s a picture of two old wrecks on Cowes river, one called “Ryde” and one called “Northroader”:

 

 

both born around the same time, and both with uncertain futures!

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Northroader

[Edwardian]

6 minutes ago, Northroader said:

The illustration you give, James, would be for a special WD build 12ton open in the 30001-31100 series, as it has the extended frames to accommodate the brakeman’s cabin (vigie) The 1001-3000 series ex PO wagons wouldn’t have the longer frames, but that’s not to say a model kit for one would be a simple basis for doing one with a vigie, as in your illustration.

 

Excellent. Now I'm thinking one of each type. As you say, they could be derived from the same kit.

 

By the way, it makes sense that the wagon illustrated was built with longer frames, as there is no evidence in the illustration of a frame that has been extended.  

[Edwardian]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This photograph of a D302 10-ton open modified for WD service is well known, having appeared in Essery's Midland Wagons:

 

 

 

 

I want one! Is there a kit available of this MR wagon in original form that might be adapted?

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Is there a kit available of this MR wagon in original form that might be adapted?

 

I'm sure Mousa (@billbedford) used to do one but at the moment I can only find D663A, which was the successor but is pretty much the same (a question of some debate). BWK1723/4.

[Edwardian]

Back to the Mark IV:

 

 

EDIT: Precision British engineering (half an inch either way!)

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Edwardian

[billbedford]

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm sure Mousa (@billbedford) used to do one but at the moment I can only find D663A, which was the successor but is pretty much the same (a question of some debate). BWK1723/4.

 

The other two late MR wagon I've done are d.204 and 607. I could do a 302 if enough people wanted them, but it's likely to be late January before I could have them ready. 

[Hroth]

Something else of interest, there was a CH4  programme about the construction of a replica MkIV female tank made about five years ago.

This clip is the final segment at Cambrai.

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

31 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Something else of interest, there was a CH4  programme about the construction of a replica MkIV female tank made about five years ago.

This clip is the final segment at Cambrai.

 

 

 

 

Is that Deborah II, based on the buried Deborah knocked out at Cambrai (mentioned in the Cambrai documentary posted earlier)? 

 

And why does, presumably, Guy Martin look demonically possessed in the thumbnail?

 

 

[Northroader]

Brother Hroth was very keen to find out what happened to 2728 on page 4, so....

 

[drmditch]

Re: Paddle-tugs

This may not be relevant to the WW1 era, but you might like to be aware that Devonport had diesel-electric paddle-tugs into the second half of the 20th century.

I understand they were designed to get close in to Aircraft Carriers. and exert a strong directional pull.

One link found here.

 

Carriers of that era were regarded as having a large sail area,

Nowadays, presumably the horrible vehicle carriers etc just depend on powerful screw tugs, and on not losing engine power; or getting in a situation when they cannot manoeuvre. 

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Brother Hroth was very keen to find out what happened to 2728 on page 4, so....

 

Aha! I was thinking of the tale of 2717's capture and recapture, which was mentioned earlier in the thread. This story of 2728 is new to me. The majority of the Kirtley 0-6-0s that went to France went in May 1917, with a final batch in November 1917. It does seem to be generally the case that British stock was shipped to France in 1917 and 1918 - what was the situation during the first half of the war?

[Hroth]

41 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Is that Deborah II, based on the buried Deborah knocked out at Cambrai (mentioned in the Cambrai documentary posted earlier)? 

 

And why does, presumably, Guy Martin look demonically possessed in the thumbnail?

 

 

 

I believe so, they certainly visited the remains of Deborah, but its a while since I saw the whole programme.  As for Guy Martins expression, he tends to look like that all the time...

 

[phil_sutters]

6 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

While on the subject of paddle steamers, let's not forget the PS Waverley, still going strong and making annual visits to the south coast.

 

Several Clyde paddlers were requisitioned by the navy during WW1.

 

Jim

and Kingswear Castle

[phil_sutters]

I don't have a date for this old print my grandfather collected, but clearly Victorian. I think that boaters were fashionable for ladies around the turn of the century. This was their version of the coach trip, especially to otherwise inaccessible places like Clovelly.

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by phil_sutters

[Nearholmer]

There’s something dissonant about the idea of cruising on the Medway.

[phil_sutters]

3 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

There’s something dissonant about the idea of cruising on the Medway.

It wasn't that far - from the Historic Dockyard as far as the waters off Upnor Castle and back. It was good to see the pistons, cranks and rods in action.

[Caley Jim]

31 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

and Kingswear Castle

But is it seagoing?  Waverley is registered for the open Firth and inshore waters.

 

18 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

It was good to see the pistons, cranks and rods in action.

It was a tradition on the Clyde paddlers that the men would always have a trip below decks to 'see the engines'!*

 

Jim

* The bar was also below decks!

[phil_sutters]

2 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

But is it seagoing?  Waverley is registered for the open Firth and inshore waters.

 

It was a tradition on the Clyde paddlers that the men would always have a trip below decks to 'see the engines'!*

 

Jim

* The bar was also below decks!

Kingswear Castle is a river excursion vessel. As the name would suggest initially on the River Dart.

I remember having a trip on Waverley (I think) from Birnbeck Pier, Weston-super-Mare over to the Welsh Coast. I can't remember which port - possibly Barry. It was probably nearly seventy years ago.

[Chen Melling]

On 27/11/2022 at 14:27, Northroader said:

This list might help in planning your rolling stock build/ acquisition, as it lists all the war department wagons, in part a load of wagons borrowed from the British main line companies, plus a series of new build specially ordered by the W.D., such as the “Saltley” wagons Stephen has commented on.

 

In fact, this is not a complete list of WW1 WD wagons, as it excludes at least most of the wagons that were sent to the Egyptian Expeditionary Force. Most of these were types already listed here, but numbered in a local series, prefixed with E.

E.g. E.1281 - E.1400 were 10t vans very similar to the LNWR D.88 type, and probably identical to the WD 36301-37250, except for the side chains.

However, some of the EEF wagons probably did come from this list, as the bore numbers such as 34013-34476 for 12t covered vans.

 

There was also a series of 250 steel-bodied vans built for the EEF to an existing Egyptian design, which were numbered in the global WD sequence as 38001-38250 but are also missing from the above list. 

 

Almost all surviving EEF stock was handed-over (actually sold) to the fledgling Palestine Railways on its formation, on October 1st 1920.

 

Below is a works photo of WD 12t open No. E.701 built by Hurst Nelson, from the collection of the Israel Railway Museum.

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Chen Melling said:

In fact, this is not a complete list of WW1 WD wagons, as it excludes at least most of the wagons that were sent to the Egyptian Expeditionary Force. Most of these were types already listed here, but numbered in a local series, prefixed with E.

E.g. E.1281 - E.1400 were 10t vans very similar to the LNWR D.88 type, and probably identical to the WD 36301-37250, except for the side chains.

However, some of the EEF wagons probably did come from this list, as the bore numbers such as 34013-34476 for 12t covered vans.

 

There was also a series of 250 steel-bodied vans built for the EEF to an existing Egyptian design, which were numbered in the global WD sequence as 38001-38250 but are also missing from the above list. 

 

Almost all surviving EEF stock was handed-over (actually sold) to the fledgling Palestine Railways on its formation, on October 1st 1920.

 

I was wondering about that. The LNWR D88-like vans were built directly for the War Department; this one is a Birmingham RC&W Co, product:

 

 

[Embedded link to Flickr.]

 

Note the WD oil axleboxes, with the journal size and date cast on the front cover.

 

The Hurst Nelson wagon is in their usual style of painting for official photos, complete, in this case, with additional signwriting giving details of the contract. I suppose it would have been delivered to the WD in the usual grey livery. This one has Hurst Nelson's own design of oil axleboxes,

 

While I've got them to hand, a couple more photos of WD vans, No. 34022 by Central Wagon Co., Ince - 9' 9" / 2.972 m wheelbase, Central Wagon Co.'s oil axleboxes:

 

 

Despite the French markings, this fits the EEF number sequence mentioned.

 

And with a brakesman's hut, No. 31300 from the Birmingham RC&W Co., 10' 9" / 3.277 m wheelbase, WD oil axleboxes dated 1918:

 

 

[Both embedded links to Flickr]

 

These vans seem to have been designed by a committee, with a St Rollox draughtsman working on the sides and a Derby draughtsman on the ends! The details of the sliding door runners and rollers look Midland to me, though.

 

Finally, another Smethwick product, of decidedly French aspect, to rival the "Saltleys":

 

 

[Embedded link to Flickr.]

Edited November 29, 2022 by Compound2632
typo.

[Nearholmer]

I’ve realised that these are all Hornby tinplate for the French market c1930, when production was mostly British-origin wagons with a “vigie” stuck on the end.

[Andy Hayter]

I think that strictly the ROD only operated in W Europe.  The Egyptian wagons are marked WD - war department - but that does not mean that they are ROD - a fine distinction I agree.