Fleischmann v Lemke (N Gauge Locomotives)

[SBB1]

Hi all,

 

My fledgling Swiss N gauge collection is starting to take shape, with a handful of wagons, coaches, and EMUs purchased. It's nearly time to take plunge and starting buying electric locos, and I was wondering if more experienced modellers than me could share their thoughts.

 

Fleischmann and Lemke (Hobbytrain/Kato) have both produced the more common locomotive types (Re 193, Re 420, Re 460 etc.) What are the pros/cons of each manufacturer? I've read multiple sources that say more recent Fleischmann models have had some reliability issues - is that fair?

 

Priorities for me are reliability and quality. I don't especially mind paying more for the better model.

 

Many thanks!

 

Andrew

[cornish trains jez]

3 hours ago, SBB1 said:

Hi all,

 

My fledgling Swiss N gauge collection is starting to take shape, with a handful of wagons, coaches, and EMUs purchased. It's nearly time to take plunge and starting buying electric locos, and I was wondering if more experienced modellers than me could share their thoughts.

 

Fleischmann and Lemke (Hobbytrain/Kato) have both produced the more common locomotive types (Re 193, Re 420, Re 460 etc.) What are the pros/cons of each manufacturer? I've read multiple sources that say more recent Fleischmann models have had some reliability issues - is that fair?

 

Priorities for me are reliability and quality. I don't especially mind paying more for the better model.

 

Many thanks!

 

Andrew

 

Hi Andrew,

 

I have re460/re465's from both Fleischmann and Kato and both are really good models. Both run really well and have good hauling power - i.e no problems push/pulling a long IC2000 rake of 8 to 10 coaches. The Fleischmann model is a bit quieter than the Kato model.

I do feel the Fleischmann model is slightly better detailed but this is more than likely down to it being a much newer tooling than the Kate model. One thing I do like about the Fleischmann model is the ability to remove the coupling and add a plastic insert to one end so that it doesn't leave an unsightly gap at the front. The minitrix Re460's have a massive gap at the front which looks awful.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

 

[SBB1]

5 hours ago, cornish trains jez said:

 

Hi Andrew,

 

I have re460/re465's from both Fleischmann and Kato and both are really good models. Both run really well and have good hauling power - i.e no problems push/pulling a long IC2000 rake of 8 to 10 coaches. The Fleischmann model is a bit quieter than the Kato model.

I do feel the Fleischmann model is slightly better detailed but this is more than likely down to it being a much newer tooling than the Kate model. One thing I do like about the Fleischmann model is the ability to remove the coupling and add a plastic insert to one end so that it doesn't leave an unsightly gap at the front. The minitrix Re460's have a massive gap at the front which looks awful.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

 

Really helpful answer Jeremy, thank you! I think the Fleischmann Re 460 might edge it in that case, being the newer model. Great to see you be positive about performance, as my planned layout - in typical Swiss style - will have some fair gradients. Perhaps not enough space for 10 IC2000s, but maybe one day!

 

Any experience with Re 420s? These seem to be older models and harder to come by.

 

Many thanks,

 

Andrew

[Gordonwis]

14 hours ago, SBB1 said:

Hi all,

 

My fledgling Swiss N gauge collection is starting to take shape, with a handful of wagons, coaches, and EMUs purchased. It's nearly time to take plunge and starting buying electric locos, and I was wondering if more experienced modellers than me could share their thoughts.

 

Fleischmann and Lemke (Hobbytrain/Kato) have both produced the more common locomotive types (Re 193, Re 420, Re 460 etc.) What are the pros/cons of each manufacturer? I've read multiple sources that say more recent Fleischmann models have had some reliability issues - is that fair?

 

Priorities for me are reliability and quality. I don't especially mind paying more for the better model.

 

Many thanks!

 

Andrew

 

 

It would take a long time to list all the pros and cons of each manufacturer, and models vary within manufacturer as well as between manufacturers.

 

Some (selective) thoughts (Its past my bed time really!)

 

Minitrix Re4/4II - robust and IMO the best 'older' model

Fleischmann Re4/4II - old version too wide so look out of proportion. More recent version better but still has issues (including pantographs that are 'too fine for their own good). Fleischmann bigs up its newer models as having 'filigree' pantographs - this is meant to be a pro, but I think its a con as they are too delicate.

Re460: Fleischmann and Kato are both fine. I also have a Minitrix and it runs well too

Vectron: I prefer the Fleischmann (the 'vinyl' paint job on some Hobbytrain Vectrons looks to much like an 'overlay' rather than a factory -standard paint job

 

 

[SBB1]

6 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

 

 

It would take a long time to list all the pros and cons of each manufacturer, and models vary within manufacturer as well as between manufacturers.

 

Some (selective) thoughts (Its past my bed time really!)

 

Minitrix Re4/4II - robust and IMO the best 'older' model

Fleischmann Re4/4II - old version too wide so look out of proportion. More recent version better but still has issues (including pantographs that are 'too fine for their own good). Fleischmann bigs up its newer models as having 'filigree' pantographs - this is meant to be a pro, but I think its a con as they are too delicate.

Re460: Fleischmann and Kato are both fine. I also have a Minitrix and it runs well too

Vectron: I prefer the Fleischmann (the 'vinyl' paint job on some Hobbytrain Vectrons looks to much like an 'overlay' rather than a factory -standard paint job

 

 

Thank you for the detailed reply, really appreciate it!

 

You've confirmed some of the thoughts I've already had and also given me some new things to think about - I'm all for fine detail, but if newer Fleischmann pantographs are that delicate, then that definitely has to come under consideration. At least, if I do come by one I'll be extra careful when handling!

 

In general, how well is Swiss N supported? Has it become better/worse over the years? It seems like there are a fair number of products on the market, but once they are gone, they are truly gone and quite hard to come by. At least compared to, say, British or German outline.

 

Many thanks,

 

Andrew

[Frutigen]

Gradients do limit your train length. I have 2% gradients on my layout and I’d say the maximum safe load for a single loco is between 10 and 12 wagons, depending on the state of the traction tyres, maybe 15 at a push. After that you start to get wheel slip, which destroys the tyres and leaves a rubber residue on the track. Double heading can easily double the train length. Coaches seem to be heavier so you might want to start with 6 or 8 coaches and build up until you find the traction limit for your locos on your layout. 
 

As for Re420s, I agree with Gordon that the Minitrix is the best looking and most reliable of the older models, but the older examples are rough runners with poor low speed when compared with modern models, so I have fitted coreless motors to all mine, which brings them up to modern standards. I did try a modern Kato/Hobbytrain Re420 before going down this road but it was faulty and I sent it back. Others seem to have better experience with them. I do like Kato models in general and have quite a few. 
 

I think you’re right to say there’s a wider range these days but a limited window to get them after they’re released. Everything seems to be batch produced. Some models are only available in Switzerland which means ordering from Swiss retailers. 

 

[cornish trains jez]

1 hour ago, SBB1 said:

Thank you for the detailed reply, really appreciate it!

 

You've confirmed some of the thoughts I've already had and also given me some new things to think about - I'm all for fine detail, but if newer Fleischmann pantographs are that delicate, then that definitely has to come under consideration. At least, if I do come by one I'll be extra careful when handling!

 

In general, how well is Swiss N supported? Has it become better/worse over the years? It seems like there are a fair number of products on the market, but once they are gone, they are truly gone and quite hard to come by. At least compared to, say, British or German outline.

 

Many thanks,

 

Andrew

 

Hi Andrew,

 

I agree with Keith in that Swiss outline seems to be batch produced. I've been dealing with Scograil in Ipswich recently who have been really helpful in sourcing me the latest releases.

Other shops I've dealt with have been DM Toys in Germany and also La Vitrine Du N in Switzerland. The latter have a really good selection of second hand models and is run by a young couple who are also SBB train drivers IIRC. They also do some 3D printed bits too which are not available from the mainstream manufacturers. However the postage is eye waveringly expensive.

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

 

[SBB1]

5 hours ago, Frutigen said:

Gradients do limit your train length. I have 2% gradients on my layout and I’d say the maximum safe load for a single loco is between 10 and 12 wagons, depending on the state of the traction tyres, maybe 15 at a push. After that you start to get wheel slip, which destroys the tyres and leaves a rubber residue on the track. Double heading can easily double the train length. Coaches seem to be heavier so you might want to start with 6 or 8 coaches and build up until you find the traction limit for your locos on your layout. 
 

As for Re420s, I agree with Gordon that the Minitrix is the best looking and most reliable of the older models, but the older examples are rough runners with poor low speed when compared with modern models, so I have fitted coreless motors to all mine, which brings them up to modern standards. I did try a modern Kato/Hobbytrain Re420 before going down this road but it was faulty and I sent it back. Others seem to have better experience with them. I do like Kato models in general and have quite a few. 
 

I think you’re right to say there’s a wider range these days but a limited window to get them after they’re released. Everything seems to be batch produced. Some models are only available in Switzerland which means ordering from Swiss retailers. 

 

Thank you for your insight Keith.

 

Trains with be shorter than that on the first layout, but good to know those ball-park numbers for future reference.

 

This blog - albeit outdated - seems to confirm that most things get a run at some point, even if limited as you say: http://l.longi.li/blog/2016/10/18/sbb-trains-and-their-availability-in-n/

 

Hoping to see more EMUs out there on the market in the future - an RABe 501 and updated RDBe 560 would be fantastic!

 

5 hours ago, cornish trains jez said:

 

Hi Andrew,

 

I agree with Keith in that Swiss outline seems to be batch produced. I've been dealing with Scograil in Ipswich recently who have been really helpful in sourcing me the latest releases.

Other shops I've dealt with have been DM Toys in Germany and also La Vitrine Du N in Switzerland. The latter have a really good selection of second hand models and is run by a young couple who are also SBB train drivers IIRC. They also do some 3D printed bits too which are not available from the mainstream manufacturers. However the postage is eye waveringly expensive.

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

 

Thank you for the tips Jeremy - I've already used Scograil for a bargain EW IV and have my eye on a couple of items from DM Toys. The bulk of my wagons so far have come from Hampshire Models - very reasonable prices as well!

 

I've also noticed this about buying from Switzerland in my brief experience. I found a wagon on a Swiss site that was sold out everywhere else afaik, but delivery would have been about a third of the total cost, so I didn't bother in the end. Maybe it's worth it for a big order, but not for a solitary wagon.

 

Perhaps I'll have to find a model shop or two in Switzerland that I can swing by on a visit at some point...

 

Andrew

[cornish trains jez]

18 minutes ago, SBB1 said:

Thank you for your insight Keith.

 

Trains with be shorter than that on the first layout, but good to know those ball-park numbers for future reference.

 

This blog - albeit outdated - seems to confirm that most things get a run at some point, even if limited as you say: http://l.longi.li/blog/2016/10/18/sbb-trains-and-their-availability-in-n/

 

Hoping to see more EMUs out there on the market in the future - an RABe 501 and updated RDBe 560 would be fantastic!

 

Thank you for the tips Jeremy - I've already used Scograil for a bargain EW IV and have my eye on a couple of items from DM Toys. The bulk of my wagons so far have come from Hampshire Models - very reasonable prices as well!

 

I've also noticed this about buying from Switzerland in my brief experience. I found a wagon on a Swiss site that was sold out everywhere else afaik, but delivery would have been about a third of the total cost, so I didn't bother in the end. Maybe it's worth it for a big order, but not for a solitary wagon.

 

Perhaps I'll have to find a model shop or two in Switzerland that I can swing by on a visit at some point...

 

Andrew

 

With regards to units, Hobbytrain announced they are producing the Stadler KISS SBB RABe511 units and also the BLS MUTZ 515 units. Worth keeping a look out for them. I have one of each pre-ordered with Scograil. Having seen the EP samples on their Facebook page, we are in for a treat!

 

Piko have announced the RABe501 in H0...so who knows, they may shrink it to N gauge in the future. Would make a cracking model!

 

Best regards,

Jeremy

 

[SBB1]

4 hours ago, cornish trains jez said:

 

With regards to units, Hobbytrain announced they are producing the Stadler KISS SBB RABe511 units and also the BLS MUTZ 515 units. Worth keeping a look out for them. I have one of each pre-ordered with Scograil. Having seen the EP samples on their Facebook page, we are in for a treat!

 

Piko have announced the RABe501 in H0...so who knows, they may shrink it to N gauge in the future. Would make a cracking model!

 

Best regards,

Jeremy

 

 

That Piko RABe 501 is stunningly beautiful. There's something about those units... possibly my favourite at the moment. Praying for one in N!

 

One high-speed train I do have on order is the Kato TGV Lyria Duplex, bought direct from Plaza Japan for about half of what it's retailing for over here. Shipping wasn't extortionate either. Perhaps worth checking out if that's your kind of thing.

 

Andrew

[Gordonwis]

8 hours ago, cornish trains jez said:

 

Piko have announced the RABe501 in H0...so who knows, they may shrink it to N gauge in the future. Would make a cracking model!

 

 

The concern with Piko is that an N gauge Swiss 501 might be 'Exclusiv Schweiz' and thus hard to obtain and eyewateringly pricey like the RBe4/4 and Bt

[Gordonwis]

There is a 500 available in 3D

Edited November 17, 2022 by Gordonwis

[Gordonwis]

15 hours ago, Frutigen said:

I agree with Gordon that the Minitrix is the best looking and most reliable of the older models, but the older examples are rough runners with poor low speed when compared with modern models, so I have fitted coreless motors to all mine, which brings them up to modern standards.

 

 

It is worth noting that there are two generations of mechanism in the 'old' Minitrix Re4/4II. The more recent mech is smoother than the oldest ones. If you buy one second hand it is best if that is 'face to face' so that you can inspect the chassis

 

The good thing is all the bodies will fit all the chassis

Edited November 17, 2022 by Gordonwis

[cornish trains jez]

7 hours ago, SBB1 said:

 

That Piko RABe 501 is stunningly beautiful. There's something about those units... possibly my favourite at the moment. Praying for one in N!

 

One high-speed train I do have on order is the Kato TGV Lyria Duplex, bought direct from Plaza Japan for about half of what it's retailing for over here. Shipping wasn't extortionate either. Perhaps worth checking out if that's your kind of thing.

 

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

 

I’m certainly interested in the duplex TGV as I already have the single deck version in the Lyria livery.

 

i would be interested to know if there would be any import duty to pay on the one you ordered as the prices do look very competitive compared to the price here.

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

 

[Gordonwis]

19 hours ago, cornish trains jez said:

Hi Andrew,

 

I’m certainly interested in the duplex TGV as I already have the single deck version in the Lyria livery.

 

i would be interested to know if there would be any import duty to pay on the one you ordered as the prices do look very competitive compared to the price here.

 

 

 

 

There is always a fee of some sort slapped on to packages from Japan, on arrival in UK.

 

I have been buying direct from Hobby Search Japan on and off since the inception of Kato N gauge RhB series. It has ALWAYS been cheaper at source than buying here and the various charges you have to pay to get it released by Parcel Force et al are usually not high enough to bring the cost back above a UK home retail price

 

 

 

[jjb1970]

My interest in Kato is primarily Japanese outline, but I have always found it much better to buy from Japan, even with the VAT and handling fee added. Now my current circumstances are a bit different buying Japanese models from Japan in Singapore is quite eye opening as without 20% VAT, handling charge and with much cheaper postage combined with a devalued yen Japanese shops are extremely attractive.

[SBB1]

On 17/11/2022 at 05:08, cornish trains jez said:

Hi Andrew,

 

I’m certainly interested in the duplex TGV as I already have the single deck version in the Lyria livery.

 

i would be interested to know if there would be any import duty to pay on the one you ordered as the prices do look very competitive compared to the price here.

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

 

Yes I did have to pay duty - I believe you have to pay on goods worth £135 or more. In the case of the TGV Duplex, it has still worked out to be about £100 cheaper than UK retailers with all shipping/handling fees. Ordered this Tuesday gone, due to arrive next Tuesday, so very prompt delivery as well! 

 

Andrew

Edited November 18, 2022 by SBB1
Grammatical error

[Michanglais]

Hi Andrew,

 

I have to throw my two cents worth in regarding the re460s.

 

I swear by the Fleischmann model in terms of looks - it beats the others hands down as far as I'm concerned. THAT BEING SAID... I've got a total of eight dating from when they were first introduced up to some of the latest releases. On every single one, the motor has given out on me.

 

I believe (from the helpful experts in this forum) this is due to dirty 'brushes' and 'commutators'. Things I had no idea about before coming across this problem. 'Gottardo' very kindly put together a bunch of photos showing me how to clean the offending parts, which should have solved the problem. (If you ever need them I think they're in my post entitled something like 'erratic running of re460/465s'.)

 

If you've got very good eyesight/LED magnifying lenses and extreme dexterity it is apparently possible to clean them and all runs fine. I tried... and failed. I ended up bending contact parts, rendering them permanently immobile. I have opted to get my entire fleet retro-fitted with Micromotor.eu coreless motors. (There is an instruction video on YouTube on how to do it but I'm not particularly good with my hands and I've found a French dealer who will fit them for just €20 a loco - well worth the investment to me.)

 

Maybe I've been VERY unlucky but 8 for 8 does seem pretty high odds... That being said, if I do buy any further re460/465s, it'll still be the Fleischmann models.

 

 

[SBB1]

On 19/11/2022 at 17:36, Michanglais said:

Hi Andrew,

 

I have to throw my two cents worth in regarding the re460s.

 

I swear by the Fleischmann model in terms of looks - it beats the others hands down as far as I'm concerned. THAT BEING SAID... I've got a total of eight dating from when they were first introduced up to some of the latest releases. On every single one, the motor has given out on me.

 

I believe (from the helpful experts in this forum) this is due to dirty 'brushes' and 'commutators'. Things I had no idea about before coming across this problem. 'Gottardo' very kindly put together a bunch of photos showing me how to clean the offending parts, which should have solved the problem. (If you ever need them I think they're in my post entitled something like 'erratic running of re460/465s'.)

 

If you've got very good eyesight/LED magnifying lenses and extreme dexterity it is apparently possible to clean them and all runs fine. I tried... and failed. I ended up bending contact parts, rendering them permanently immobile. I have opted to get my entire fleet retro-fitted with Micromotor.eu coreless motors. (There is an instruction video on YouTube on how to do it but I'm not particularly good with my hands and I've found a French dealer who will fit them for just €20 a loco - well worth the investment to me.)

 

Maybe I've been VERY unlucky but 8 for 8 does seem pretty high odds... That being said, if I do buy any further re460/465s, it'll still be the Fleischmann models.

 

 

 

Thank you for your input @Michanglais

 

That's all very helpful - if I do have a motor give out on an Re 460, I'll know exactly where to go! Seems likely that I will from what you've said, unless they make improvements going forwards. I have to say that the Fleischmann models do look great, so hopefully they are worth that bit of messing around under-the-hood.