Hattons six wheeler derailments

[Mick38]

The floating centre axle on these coaches are very prone to derail on facing points. As I have no tight curves, I am tempted to centralise and fix the centre axle. Has anyone else tried this?

Edited November 20, 2022 by Mick38

[Metr0Land]

I removed the centre axle - job done, and it's not too noticable unless you're down at track level.

[cypherman]

Hi,

You do not have to remove the whole axel. Just cut away the wheel flange of the middle wheel. Then fix it in place with a touch of glue to hold the axel in place. I suggest using clear silicone sealant, so it does not drop, That way it is easily reversible. You get the best of both worlds. You still have the wheel and it will not derail

Edited November 20, 2022 by cypherman

[Mick38]

Not a bad idea! Easily reversible too.

[cessna152towser]

Possibly worth checking that the centre axle isn't fixed too low in relation to the outer axles causing a banana effect.    I have had no problems with my pair of Hattons six-wheelers, even on my Peco Setrack second radius curved facing point, but I have a Bachmann 47 which is very temperamental in that it will find the slightest irregularity at a facing point or on leaving a curved section as an excuse to derail itself.

Edited November 20, 2022 by cessna152towser

[Grovenor]

On 20/11/2022 at 10:12, Mick38 said:

Not a bad idea! Easily reversible too.

Hmm, how do you put the flange back?

[The Johnster]

Another dodge might be to copy the method used on Five79 (Chivers) LMS 6-wheel van, which had a fixed, non-rotating, dummy set of centre wheels moulded as part of the sideframe.  The flange is modelled, but cut off at the bottom to ‘just’ clear the railhead and move sideways across it on curves.  Minimum curve is 2’ streamline turnout on my layout, and the ‘wheel’ is outside the curve on these, but one would not be aware of this unless one was specifically looking out for it.  The van runs well and is a favourite. 
 

To replicate this arrangement on a Hatton’s (or Hornby) 6-wheeler, one would renove the centre wheelset and remove a chord of the flange with a hacksaw/slitting disc, and file to deburr.  The removed chord is then positioned to mirror image the wheel on the other end of the axle (twist the wheel on the axle with a bit of grunt) and the modified wheelset glued into fixed position with the cuts at the bottom.  I’d suggest glueing the axle to something fixed to the coach floor or the sideframe rather than glueing the axle end into the bearing in case you need to reverse the process in future.  If the model has whitewall tyres, I would advise blackening or heavily weathering all of them to prevent the whitewall from drawing attention to the centre wheelset. 
 

You will now be left with a long wheelbase 4-wheeler, which may present problems of it’s own but should be ok if you keep to the manufacturer’s minimum radius spec and your track is laid smooth and level. It’s a cheat and you may find it unacceptable, but it works!

[cypherman]

10 hours ago, Grovenor said:

Hmm, how do you put the flange back?

Hi Grovenor, You don't. You put new wheels in. They are cheap enough to buy.

[cypherman]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Another dodge might be to copy the method used on Five79 (Chivers) LMS 6-wheel van, which had a fixed, non-rotating, dummy set of centre wheels moulded as part of the sideframe.  The flange is modelled, but cut off at the bottom to ‘just’ clear the railhead and move sideways across it on curves.  Minimum curve is 2’ streamline turnout on my layout, and the ‘wheel’ is outside the curve on these, but one would not be aware of this unless one was specifically looking out for it.  The van runs well and is a favourite. 
 

To replicate this arrangement on a Hatton’s (or Hornby) 6-wheeler, one would renove the centre wheelset and remove a chord of the flange with a hacksaw/slitting disc, and file to deburr.  The removed chord is then positioned to mirror image the wheel on the other end of the axle (twist the wheel on the axle with a bit of grunt) and the modified wheelset glued into fixed position with the cuts at the bottom.  I’d suggest glueing the axle to something fixed to the coach floor or the sideframe rather than glueing the axle end into the bearing in case you need to reverse the process in future.  If the model has whitewall tyres, I would advise blackening or heavily weathering all of them to prevent the whitewall from drawing attention to the centre wheelset. 
 

You will now be left with a long wheelbase 4-wheeler, which may present problems of it’s own but should be ok if you keep to the manufacturer’s minimum radius spec and your track is laid smooth and level. It’s a cheat and you may find it unacceptable, but it works!

Hi The Johnster,

I have a couple of GWR 6-wheel milk wagons like that. With only the bottom part of the flange cut away. I had forgotten all about them till you mentioned the flanges. I think they were Ratio kits

[melmerby]

On 20/11/2022 at 06:27, Mick38 said:

The floating centre axle on these coaches are very prone to derail on facing points. As I have no tight curves, I am tempted to centralise and fix the centre axle. Has anyone else tried this?

Really?

Not on my far from perfect trackwork.

I can even push them at shunting speed through complex pointwork at shunting speed and they only derail on one point, where other (non 6 wheel) stock, also derails occasionally.

Edited November 21, 2022 by melmerby

[Harlequin]

On 20/11/2022 at 10:12, cypherman said:

Hi,

You do not have to remove the whole axel. Just cut away the wheel flange of the middle wheel. Then fix it in place with a touch of glue to hold the axel in place. I suggest using clear silicone sealant, so it does not drop, That way it is easily reversible. You get the best of both worlds. You still have the wheel and it will not derail

Have you actually done this to a Hattons Genesis 6 wheeler? These things are beautifully engineered with a clever sliding centre “truck” but you seem to be thinking of something completely different.

 

I have had no trouble with them through facing points either but when derailments like this do occur the first thing to do is always to check the back to back of the offending axle.

 

[Dominion]

I have also had no trouble with them, propelling them through facing points and slips.
I wonder if there is something up with the chassis or a wheel set on the OPs examples ? A tight back to back on a wheel set could pick up an open point blade perhaps ? 

[cypherman]

11 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Have you actually done this to a Hattons Genesis 6 wheeler? These things are beautifully engineered with a clever sliding centre “truck” but you seem to be thinking of something completely different.

 

I have had no trouble with them through facing points either but when derailments like this do occur the first thing to do is always to check the back to back of the offending axle.

 

Hi,

No, I have not tried this. It was just a possible solution. I possibly wrongly that checking the back to back wheel distance would have been done. As this is the first thing I would have checked. I was basing my idea on the older Hornby 6-wheel milk/ Palethorpes wagons with their quite clever sliding centre wheels and of course the milk wagons I posted above. I found on a couple of my Hornby wagons that sometimes the middle wheels would jam as they slid across and derail them.

[Mick38]

Thank you everyone. I didn’t understand “cyberman”s suggestion at first, then realized he meant only the bottom bit of the flange was removed. I’ve done this, just a few strokes on an oilstone is all it takes, and now have no troubles at all. A little bit of extra weight helps, as well.