NER livery and repaint question

[Edwardian]

I wonder if anyone can please help. This might be more of a case of you testing my reasoning rather than actually having further information, but there are some real NER experts hereabouts who might actually know the answers!

 

For non-NER buffs, in terms of livery, T W Worsdell had his claret bordered green. The loco in quo was built under his superintendancy in 1890. Brother Wilson's simplified lined green was adopted from the M1s onward, so, IIRC, from 1892. The loco in question will be in either this livery during the time period I'm interested in (c.1908-1911) or the black lined livery instituted in 1904 for goods and mineral classes. 

 

I am looking at a specific NER goods class engine, specifically a Class E 0-6-0T, a shunting type. This is a J71 for those of you who speak LNER!

 

Assuming that any repaints only took place as and when engines went into works for repairs/overhaul, I have gleaned the following (sources in brackets):

 

12/1899 - Light repair - Westinghouse equipment fitted for train brake (RCTS 8A, Yeadon's 43A) 

4/1903 - General repairs  (Yeadon's 43A)

6/1904 - Gateshead Works instruction that "All goods and mineral engines to be painted black in future, using own discretion as to the amount of lining" (North Eastern record Vo.3)

1/1912 - General repairs  (Yeadon's 43A)

 

We can assume that in 1903 any repaint would have been to Wilson Worsdell's lined green. If there was not another repaint, because there was not another works visit, until 1912, January 1912 would seem the earliest the engine could have adopted the lined black livery.  

 

There is a complication with this particular engine, but not one that I think affects the above assumption for the period before the 1912 works visit.

 

The fitting of Westinghouse gear in 1899, apparently the only class member to have this combination of steam brakes for the engine and air brake gear for the train, is associated with station pilot duty, but later the locomotive was noted on supplementary passenger services. Whether either of these duties would cause the NER to maintain the locomotive in green, regardless of the incidence of works visits, is something else I do not know.  This combination of brakes was still fitted at Grouping, suggesting that the engine continued to be used for pilot and/or part-time passenger working. If so, I wonder if a repaint assumed to take place in 1912 would retain the green livery or go to black. 

 

Based on the above, is it correct to assume that this locomotive would have remained in W Worsdell's lined green at least until January1912?

 

A further issue is the stays that were universally fitted to the front foot-steps of the class. I have so far seen no example of stays in a picture showing a livery earlier than 1904 lined black, which tends me to think that in the case of the locomotive in question the stays are more likely to have been fitted in 1912 than 1903, or 1899. Again, I'd be grateful for any help on this. 

 

EDIT: Pictures! Top to bottom (1) T W Worsdell lined green with claret borders, (2) Wilson Worsdell's simplified lined green, (3) 1904 lined black for goods and mineral locos

 

 

Note the chap standing in front of the front step in the middle picture. Neither Es and E1s don't seem to be pictured with them until we are into the black-liveried era. The works grey E1 of the 1914 batch shows this batch to have the stays fitted as built. A possible indication of the period in which Es and existing E1s were retro-fitted with step stays. It might be a Ravenism.

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Edwardian
Pictures

[corneliuslundie]

I suggest that you send your query to John Shaw, the HMRS NER company steward, who has been working on a book of photos of NER locos and knows a great deal about liveries and the histories of individual locos.

His HMRS e-mail address (omitting the spaces) is ner @ hmrs.org.uk 

Jonathan

[Edwardian]

Thanks, Jonathan.

 

I had a prompt and detailed response from John.

 

He mentions the use of pilots at Selby, The loco I am interested in is one of two Class Es, shedded at Selby. Designed as shunters, a number of Es were used as station pilots, starting as it happens with the loco I am interested in in 1899. This is No.296. From what John says I infer that shunting classes used as pilots would have gone into black in due course along with the rest of their classes, so no special treatment.

 

He does not, however, challenge the assumption that No.296 would have been in W Wilson lined green from at least 1903 and not be painted black until 1912.

 

So, though I had expected a black E for the period of interest, late 1900s to c.1911, actually I need to paint it green. 😀