Semaphore Gantries

[MOH]

Apologies if this has been done to death earlier but can any kind soul please point me to where I can purchase semaphore signals and gantries, self assembly kits will be fine for me, I don't need the signals to work, these will be static and just to add a small touch of realism, while the market seems well supplied with motorised and colour signaling the old school stuff is not as plentiful or am I just looking in the wrong areas?

 

My layout is 00 gauge and the gantries will need to cover multiple platforms but I reckon I can hack/bodge what I need from a multiple of kits. I reckon I will need just 2 gantry locations - one at either end of my station platforms, the layout is LMS based and, given the space, I am not sure distant signals would be appropriate and I am assuming only home and and or starter signals will be needed?

 

You will gather that my knowledge of signaling is zero by the way.

[St Enodoc]

8 minutes ago, MOH said:

Apologies if this has been done to death earlier but can any kind soul please point me to where I can purchase semaphore signals and gantries, self assembly kits will be fine for me, I don't need the signals to work, these will be static and just to add a small touch of realism, while the market seems well supplied with motorised and colour signaling the old school stuff is not as plentiful or am I just looking in the wrong areas?

 

My layout is 00 gauge and the gantries will need to cover multiple platforms but I reckon I can hack/bodge what I need from a multiple of kits. I reckon I will need just 2 gantry locations - one at either end of my station platforms, the layout is LMS based and, given the space, I am not sure distant signals would be appropriate and I am assuming only home and and or starter signals will be needed?

 

You will gather that my knowledge of signaling is zero by the way.

The simplest solution would be Ratio plastic kits. If you prefer metal, Wizard Models is the place to look (usual disclaimer).

 

You'll find plenty of information on what signals to place where by browsing through the threads in this part of RMweb.

[Joseph_Pestell]

To answer your other point, whether or not there would be distant signals on the same doll as the starters would depend on how close the next signalling block (and box) is. This is probably not on scene on your layout but you still need to think about it as if it is. It could be a junction to a goods yard, a lead to a locomotive depot, a diverging route, etc.

 

This is case where it is easier to model a real location than a freelance model.

 

Well worth looking up the Signalling Record Society website. You can find diagrams showing various LMS termini which you get inspiration from.

[5BarVT]

Or post your layout here (with or without a first attempt at signals).  There are quite a few of us who won’t be able to resist chipping in.

Paul.

P.S. You may discover the scourge of the signal engineer: four engineers, at least 5 opinions . . .

[Wheatley]

These are the Ratio ones - 

 

https://peco-uk.com/products/lms-round-post-signal

 

They're customizable, you aren't restricted to what's on the box photos. They can be made to work if you feel so inclined later, but they're a bit delicate for working models. The ladders are the weakest feature (too clunky for scale but still fragile) but brass replacements are available from Wizard and others.  They're still fragile but they can at least usually be bent back into shape !

Edited December 6, 2022 by Wheatley

[MOH]

Thanks to all respondents, I rather fancy the over track style of gantry if I can achieve those, are there off the shelf products in that area or has scratch build to be used to construct whatever configuration is required?

 

Those Ratio types seem decent for what I need if I can get those up above the tracks, I am aware of the wide range of opinions on signaling and grateful for any advice offered, I may follow up on 5BarVT's suggestion of posting a couple of layout photo's, or sketch, on here if that is okay.

[MOH]

Hi folks,

 

Just did a further quick search and came across a Ratio 478 model of an over track signals set up, anyone got any experience, views or opinions on those please? 

 

Hattons are showing them as in stock, possibly a reasonable configuration could be achieved from a multiple combination of those and the Ratio post kits?

[Wheatley]

That's the Pratt Truss gantry which I was sure one of the other respondents had mentioned but I must have dreamt it ! You only get the gantry and supports, you need to combine it with the signals in 476 to get something like the box top photo. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Kitbashing the Airfix gantry will give a reasonably strong, if not a slightly heavy looking structure. Plenty of options to fit semaphores or colour lights.

 

Mike.

[TheSignalEngineer]

17 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

P.S. You may discover the scourge of the signal engineer: four engineers, at least 5 opinions . . .

....each.😋

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, MOH said:

I may follow up on 5BarVT's suggestion of posting a couple of layout photo's, or sketch, on here if that is okay.

A sketch of the layout will give us what is needed in the immediate area. An explanation of what happens off-scene, e.g. distance to next box, junctions etc, will determine whether distant arms are necessary.

Photos can give a better idea of what structures to use, straight post, bracket or gantry depending on sighting distances and clearances.

Eric

Edited December 7, 2022 by TheSignalEngineer

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, MOH said:

Thanks to all respondents, I rather fancy the over track style of gantry if I can achieve those, are there off the shelf products in that area or has scratch build to be used to construct whatever configuration is required?

 

Don't go overboard with gantries.  Whilst they are certainly used where appropriate, I would suggest that bracket signals were far more commonly preferred instead.  I assume the reason would be relative cost.  Difficulty in sighting and lack of clearance for a bracket signal might typically jusitfy choice of a gantry.  Or a competitor having to pay for it, in the case of the famous "Rugby bedstead"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_railway_station#/media/File:Rugby_signal_gantry.jpg

 

[Grovenor]

Apart from Ratio plastic kits the primary kit suppliers are Wizard Models/MSE and Alan Gibson Workshop. Both have ranges of brass and whitemetal kits, a bit more tricky to build than plastic but much more robust when done.

http://www.modelsignals.com/

http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/

Brassmasters also have some parts,

http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/

 

[MOH]

Thank you Grovenor,

 

I am afraid it is going to have to be Ratio or similar plastic products, my skills do not run to brass soldering or anything of that nature, however thanks for the links, the range of items being offered to scratch builders is phenomenal in those catalogues especially the Gibson one!

 

I need to check with some of my more techy kids on how to upload photos to share the layout on here and let you good people educate me on this signaling minefield🙏

[TheSignalEngineer]

This beast at Bury could be reproduced using Ratio parts.

 

Photo by Keith Long on Flickr.

[MOH]

Thank you Signal Engineer,

 

That set up rhymes with what I have in my minds eye, remember this will not be a working signals project and the layout is fictionally based, in the meantime I have "drafted" a sketch of the relevant layout area I believe needs to be signaled and hopefully that will be uploaded with this post.

 

Hopefully that will be clear enough for suggestions and please bear in mind this is meant to represent a mainline through station with multiple platforms, the main through lines are those with the arrows showing the direction of travel.

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Thanks for the drawing. It prompts a few questions to move to the next step.

Have you laid any track yet?

Regarding the main station, is it intended that the two outside lines are for passenger use? If that is the case you will need five trap points.

What is the traffic pattern for each platform, do passenger trains terminate and turn back to where they came from? Do you want them depart in either direction from all platforms (other than shunt moves)?

Are both stations to have a signal box? This will affect what distant signals you need to provide at the main station.

How long are the platforms and what is the approximate date you are looking for? These will have a bearing on whether the main station would have one box or two.

[MOH]

Thanks Signal Engineer, I have tried to answer your queries as best I can below.

 

"Have you laid any track yet?"

Alas all track is laid down and ballasted but no thought of any trap points were previously considered I am afraid, it may be possible to retro fit those but not a job I would want to rush into.

 

"Regarding the main station, is it intended that the two outside lines are for passenger use? If that is the case you will need five trap points."

The two mainlines are one directional and continuous running lines but all other platforms can be deemed to be for bi-directional use and will be continuous line running lines also, I omitted to include the signal boxes at either end of the mainline platforms (the ones with the arrows) but they are in place, I had not planned to include signal boxes any where else in the drawing area.

 

"How long are the platforms and what is the approximate date you are looking for? These will have a bearing on whether the main station would have one box or two."

The longest platforms will take 7 coaches plus a loco so those are approx. 8ft long, all other platforms reduce in length and get progressively shorter, all platforms can be used for passenger traffic. There is just one terminal platform and that is to the far left of the drawing as a single line which I should have drawn in with a platform, all other buffered lines are for storage and sidings.

 

"What is the traffic pattern for each platform, do passenger trains terminate and turn back to where they came from? Do you want them depart in either direction from all platforms (other than shunt moves)?"

The full layout is, I believe, what is called a dog bone shape with the continuous running mainlines disappearing from view at various points and then of course reappearing, I have full access to the lines which are out of view and those lines have no points in those areas. 

 

"What is the approximate date you are looking for? These will have a bearing on whether the main station would have one box or two."

The date is the ubiquitous late steam-early diesel in what was the LMS region.

 

The overall size of the railway room is approx. 5 x 3.5 metres, the baseboards are approx. 1 metre in width all round with an operating well in the centre of the room where I can access the room via loft stairs. There is a connected  freight and loco servicing area not shown on the drawing but if it is of any help I may be able to upload some photos or perhaps a short video of the entire layout so as to give a better perspective.

 

Again all of this was arbitrarily laid out and probably breaches all prototypical rules but I am okay with that, the signaling will be for aesthetics and visual purposes but I would like those to be as visually "correct" as possible given the layout as it is, but perhaps that may not be possible.

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

If it's 1m wide, I hope you can get at both sides. 

Some jobs are very difficult if you have reach across 1m of baseboard, scenery, rolling stock etc to get to the far side.

[TheSignalEngineer]

10 hours ago, MOH said:

if it is of any help I may be able to upload some photos

Some photos would give a better idea as to what will fit on each platform. I have an idea how I would signal it, just details of position and style required.

[Michael Hodgson]

24 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

 just details of position and style required.

 

I suspect that might be what the OP is asking for advice on?

He has said it should be semaphore and on a gantry (presumably at both ends of the station).

 

Bury as shown above or Southampton Central come to my mind  for departures from the station.

 

 

rather than this   https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4978688

 

I think this layout also needs signals for entry to the platforms, but I think that they would not be on gantries or brackets, but rather a single post for each running line on which trais can approach, with route indicators because of the sheer number of platforms.

There should also be a number of shunting discs.

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

If gantries are used on the three loop platforms they will all be restricted to the length of the shortest one. The two main platforms can probably be done with a straight post or bracket at each end.

Edited December 26, 2022 by TheSignalEngineer
typos

[Enterprisingwestern]

6 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

If gantries are used on the three loop platforms they will all be restricted to the length of the shortest one. The two main platforms can probably be done with a straight post or bracket at each end.

 

Speaking from a position of blissful ignorance, shouldn't the signal placement be worked out from the fouling points?

 

Mike.

[MOH]

Many thanks to all respondents, 

 

I have taken some photos but just using my mobile phone, however I feel a short video may also give a better overall aspect of the entire layout and I hope to get that done asap and uploaded, maybe along with some photos, hopefully the video/photos will clarify what the passenger station has to offer.

 

By the way the 1 metre baseboard width includes scenics of about 300mm wide at the back of the boards and I can reach any derailments at worst by using a simple mechanical hand grabber, 

 

Overall the signals at Bury resonate with what I am after, again purely for visual effect but meaningful if that makes any sense.

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

10 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Speaking from a position of blissful ignorance, shouldn't the signal placement be worked out from the fouling points?

 

Mike.

Disclaimer:- I'm speaking from memory and anything quoted is from the standards which applied in my working days and may be different from what applies since privatisation. 

Yes, the fouling point, 6ft from the line measured at right angles, is where you start from for converging lines. On top of that if you want the track circuit clearing point you then need to add on extra for overhang. In my day this was generally considered as 16ft as I think that covered the nose end of the prototype APT. In cases where standage was critical like station areas you could do a calculation to reduce the distance of the track circuit joint beyond the fouling point from the where the 16ft applied in the case of a right angle crossing to zero if the two lines ran parallel going away from the fouling point. The signal would then be placed between 5ft and 65ft from the clearance point. The standage length also needs to take into account the train stopping position based on the driver being able to see the aspects from his seat, unlike the North Bay at Wolverhampton which was fine for a 3-car 57ft DMU but when a Class 120 was put in there the driver had to go back to the first passenger door to check if the signal was off.

There were a few exceptions but these get increasingly more complex and would be decided on a case-by-case basis. Birmingham New Street was a good example where all moved were 10mph maximum and it effectively had its own set of rules. 

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by TheSignalEngineer