Lima Ringfield motor questions

[barney121e]

Hi 

 

I have a few Lima locos with ringfield motors. Having been giving them a good service to see if i can get them running better. Now one works great and i only need 30% power to get it moving and it runs smoothly. Another started running at 50% and after service still takes this amount to get going, whilst another was jerky and although runs smoothly now it needs 70% power to get moving. I also had a loco with a non working engine and put a cd conversion in it. It runs very smoothly with 30% power to get going. 

 

What power level do people think is reasonable to get a loco started? Just wondering if it would make sense to replace at least the one that needs 70%.

 

Any views much appreciated.

[melmerby]

28 minutes ago, barney121e said:

What power level do people think is reasonable to get a loco started?

Much less than 30%.

But what are you using to determine "power", just where the control knob is set?

Is it DC with a basic resistance controller, DC with a good feedback controller, or DCC?

 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by melmerby

[barney121e]

3 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Much less than 30%.

But what are you using to determine "power", just where the control knob is set?

Is it DC with a basic resistance controller, DC with a good feedback controller, or DCC?

 

 

Using a gaugemaster 4 track controller. Using the control knob to determine power. And is DC.

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by barney121e

[melmerby]

It's unlikely to be the actual power but more likely something like the voltage fed to the motor as a proportion of the maximum.

It'll actually be less than 30% power.

I would re-check the one needing 70% as that is clearly wrong and wont be easy to control.

 

From my own experience (one Diesel Railcar) Lima mechanisms do take a bit of grunt to get moving.

So much so that I replaced the Lima bogie with a Black Beetle.

I did have a GWR Prairie but sold that without running it.

 

The CD motor "upgrade" seems to be a quite popular fix for Lima mechanisms, but I have reservations about the longevity of some of the motors, especially as they can be rated as low as 2.7v

Probably OK if no long periods of maximum speed.

[Goldhawk]

Are you able to run any non Lima locos with which to make a comparison?

 

On my short shunting plank layout I have two class 73s, they both require a slightly higher controller setting (about an extra 10% on the turn of the dial) when compared to my other locos (Bachmann)  in order to get them moving but once under way will run just as smoothly if not as quietly!  They both still have their original Lima motors but fitted with replacement brushes and springs from Peters Spares. I have also fitted Ultrascale wheels and additional pick-ups.

 

If your locos have been fitted with extra pick-ups might I suggest checking that they are not pressing too hard against the wheels and acting as a brake.

 

[cypherman]

The simple answer to your question is to dump the Ringfield motors and get CD motor replacements. They are relatively easy to fit. There are several suppliers out there. I use Strathpeffer junction kits. They are available on Ebay. If you cannot find what you want, mail him through Ebay. He has been very helpful to me in the past.

[barney121e]

@melmerby i know they warn not to run the cd upgrade at max speed for long periods, which is fine because i wont be.

 

@GoldhawkOnly got a couple of Hornby trains, but similar issues and they are older trains so difficult to compare.

 

@cypherman i just dont want to spend money if i can get away with it, but my thinking is to do a service and if i can get them running well, like the GWR Railcar then to not replace that but if i cant then a replacement seems to make sense.

 

Have also learnt a new skill, soldering. So has been a win win for me.

[PaulaDoesTrains]

I've found that replacing the old brush springs with modern ones helps enormously with start up. The old ones were made from a noticeably thicker wire than the ones you can currently get and I think that made it harder to find that Goldilocks pressure which is enough to give good electrical contact without excessive drag. The modern brush springs, being much finer, seem to be far more forgiving.

[barney121e]

24 minutes ago, PaulaDoesTrains said:

I've found that replacing the old brush springs with modern ones helps enormously with start up. The old ones were made from a noticeably thicker wire than the ones you can currently get and I think that made it harder to find that Goldilocks pressure which is enough to give good electrical contact without excessive drag. The modern brush springs, being much finer, seem to be far more forgiving.

I need to order a few spares so will order a pair or two an see if they make a difference. thanks

[Mike Buckner]

3 hours ago, Goldhawk said:

I have also fitted Ultrascale wheels and additional pick-ups.

 

 

Have you noticed any reduction in traction now that the locos do not have tyres?

 

 

[Goldhawk]

18 minutes ago, Mike Buckner said:

 

Have you noticed any reduction in traction now that the locos do not have tyres?

 

Not that I have found it a problem, the layout represents a very small freight yard. Freight only, no passenger, six wagons would be a long train my little model world and I rarely need to use anything even close to full throttle. Lima locos have a massive lump of solid steel inside that plants them very firmly on to the track. Perhaps the nickel-silver wheels can achieve a better grip on nickel-silver rail than brass would?

[DCB]

I find the Lima commutators which are pretty much printed circuit board discs burn away at the edges of the slots which ruins the starting,  Spring tension is important and the brushes need to be good, too small in diameter and they tilt and dig in to the commutator.   New and freshly run in they are reasonable runners at line speed but lumpy starters compared to worm drive mechs due to the spur gear final drive.   I use the CD motors with battery power, and they have much better torque and the speed doesn't vary as much with load and gradient as the original and they work as well on 2 x AA cells as the original does on 6X AA Cells.    Issue is the 4 wheel bogies take the larger CD motors all but the thinnest foul the centre wheels on the 6 wheel.   I would stick with standard motors until they get tired, loose brush holders, worn commutators etc, and then fit a CD motor until the stub axles for the idler gears wear out.  I haven't run out of chassis with  serviceable stub axles yet but it's touch and go.

 

[Mike Buckner]

10 hours ago, DCB said:

I use the CD motors with battery power

 

 

What control system do you use?

Cheers, Mike

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Here is 00Bill's video showing how easy it is to convert Lima engines to CD motors. It can be done for both diesels and steam outline.

 

[Phil Himsworth]

On 09/12/2022 at 21:58, DCB said:

I use the CD motors with battery power, and they have much better torque and the speed doesn't vary as much with load and gradient as the original

That's interesting; I've converted a couple of Hornby ringfield motors and the main negative I've found is that they don't have as much torque as they used to so slow down on tight corners. I wonder if all cd motors are the same...

[DCB]

3 hours ago, Phil Himsworth said:

That's interesting; I've converted a couple of Hornby ringfield motors and the main negative I've found is that they don't have as much torque as they used to so slow down on tight corners. I wonder if all cd motors are the same...

The batteries deliver a lot of (milli) amps and not much voltage but  the CD motors can slip the wheels at very low speed while the Lima Pancakes, albeit tired ones tend to stall on my steep grades, Both struggle on the sharp curves, but Pancakes need 4 batteries and CD 2 similar batteries for similar uphill speeds while Pancakes are much faster downhill.  The "Long" small diameter sort of X04 size early CD Tray motors have exceptional torque and my 28XX with one fitted (to a Wrenn 8F chassis ) barely slows down whether light engine or slipping with 20 coaches when powered by a Morley

 

19 hours ago, Mike Buckner said:

 

What control system do you use?

Cheers, Mike

i'm still working on a cheap and nasty control system.   But they run happily enough on 2 of the 4 X AA batteries they usually carry, they can hold 6 X AA  but2 give around a scale 30/40mph which is what I need in the garden. My 37s have a reversing switch operated by an overscale coupling in the front buffer beam which switches them off if they hit something  running unpowered bogie first.  It worked fine for my son when he was at primary school and my R/C experiments haven't really been successful, no signal in the tunnel being a big problem as has lack of funds.  The R/C is based on controlling an on board rheostat to control the speed but that makes the locos run fast downhill.   Reversing is also an issue.   I'll have another go sometime.  There is some good R/C stuff but not in my price range, and  

[vikingsmb]

with the lima motors, the later small geared bogies I find are better for running, slower but better traction and running wise , all my lima stock is the later small geared type, no issues

[melmerby]

18 hours ago, DCB said:

The "Long" small diameter sort of X04 size early CD Tray motors have exceptional torque

Never seen one. Any pictures?

 

One of the can motors I have is from a very early CD drive and it is the 'normal' RF300 type.

 

[DCB]

On 11/12/2022 at 22:52, melmerby said:

Never seen one. Any pictures?

 

One of the can motors I have is from a very early CD drive and it is the 'normal' RF300 type.

 

This motor came out of a CD drive many years ago.  The crank pin doesn't look anything like as horrible in real life