Brandon - ideas for a N Gauge retirement layout

[stivesnick]

All 

 

Having enjoyed the thoughts and ideas for people's planned American layouts, I am starting this thread to share my ideas for a retirement layout. It all depends on my retirement (hopefully in April) and then sorting some things out and moving house to a place with a suitable spare room for a medium sized N Gauge layout. 

 

I am keeping with the Great Northern interchange with an Interurban Railway (SRTC) of previous layouts set in the 1950s but this time based on a through station for the GN and a terminus to fiddle yard concept for the SRTC. The layout will be very loosely based on the GN route between Willmar  and Sioux City. This secondary route had 3 or 4 scheduled trains each way each day; a passenger/mail train, 1 or 2 through freights and a local freight. If space allows I can add some extra railway facilities, for example a quarry or a extra grain silo. Being a through route that connected to other railroads in Sioux City there is greater justification to run extra trains. 

 

To start with, here is a concept sketch to explain what I have in  mind. Obviously until I move, I will not know the actual space available. The basic idea is to have something interesting to operate but without filling the boards with lots of complex track. 

 

Future posts will cover ideas for suitable industries to include and hopefully will prompt some comments from those who know far more about American railways that I do. 

 

Regards 

 

Nick 

[298]

I'm looking forward to seeing this develop, anything Interurban ticks the right boxes for me.

 

A good example of the GN interchanging with (and then merging) was the Spokane & Inland Empire: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spokane_and_Inland_Empire_Railroad

[stivesnick]

19 hours ago, 298 said:

I'm looking forward to seeing this develop, anything Interurban ticks the right boxes for me.

 

A good example of the GN interchanging with (and then merging) was the Spokane & Inland Empire: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spokane_and_Inland_Empire_Railroad

 

Thanks for the information. I had seen some information on this line in various Interurban books.

 

One of the many things I will need to decide is a backstory for the interurban line which will help determine what facilities will need to be provided. For example, if the line's HQ is here, then I will need to include a car barn, power station and more storage tracks.

 

Nick 

[dckuk]

Wilmar Minnesota? Sioux City Iowa? I know there are similar ands identical names of towns and cities, often even within the same state, but having lived not too far from Wilmar Minnesota, it just kind of leaped out at me!

 

Wherever the locale, these options you listed present some great opportunities. 

 

Depending upon the era you pick, a working Interurban line can easily be incorporated based on a local service company in or near an on-line city. It would be reasonably simple to include segments of the line without the terminal infrastructure, unless that is something you desire to do. The overhead wire will get you respect enough.

 

A significant amount of traffic anywhere in the northern part of the West and Midwest was lumber; it is a great through traffic product. Wood products would move from Northern Minnesota and Wisconsin in all directions, as well as East and South from Washington, Oregon, and parts of Montana. In later years (where the interurban might be challenging) coal unit trains could also be added. 

 

And GN had some very nice paint schemes through the years, and Interchange alo opens this up even farther.

 

Looking forward to seeing the plan unfold!

[stivesnick]

7 hours ago, dckuk said:

Wilmar Minnesota? Sioux City Iowa?

 

Yes indeed. 

7 hours ago, dckuk said:

A significant amount of traffic anywhere in the northern part of the West and Midwest was lumber; it is a great through traffic product.

 

Thanks for this - is this finished timber on flat or bulkhead cars?

 

I have some bottom discharge gondolas, so thinking about sugar beet traffic and a suitable loading dock where farmers can load wagons directly.

 

A couple of grain silos will be included - in the 1950s this would still be box cars. 

 

7 hours ago, dckuk said:

And GN had some very nice paint schemes through the years

 

Layout will be based in the late 1950s so the original orange and green. The passenger service ended in 1960. 

 

Thanks again for your comments

 

Regards 

 

Nick

St Ives Cambridgeshire 

[stivesnick]

One of the reasons for basing a layout on the Willmar to Sioux City route is that it still had a daily passenger train until 1960. The train comprised 3 baggage/mail cars and a passenger coach that were through coaches from St Paul/Minneapolis. A much easier train to model than the 12-15 coach trains that ran on the main line. 

 

The train (#9) left the twin cities at 9.00pm each evening arriving at Willmar around midnight. Train #51 departed Willmar at 1.30am. It dropped off 2 baggage cars on route and I can follow this practice on the layout. 

 

A question on possible operation:

 

If I provide a spur to keep the baggage car during the day, when the car is picked up in the evening.  Do I...

a) simply add it to the back of the train (the passenger coach is normally at the back of the train but would not normally be shunted with people on it)

b) include a run around move to put the coach on the front of the train

c) Have a double ended siding to make it easier to add to the front of the train.

 

Any thoughts on what would normally happen in practice welcome.

 

Based on the rolling stock I have at present - here is my train #51 with every car different.

 

Regards 

 

Nick 

 

 

 

[dave1905]

On 05/01/2023 at 11:17, stivesnick said:

Thanks for this - is this finished timber on flat or bulkhead cars?

1950's lumber would be plain flats or boxcars.  A lot of finish lumber moved in boxcars.

 

Quote

I have some bottom discharge gondolas, so thinking about sugar beet traffic and a suitable loading dock where farmers can load wagons directly.

1950's western US would have coal, rock, etc. in drop bottom gons too.   Hoppers were more of an eastern thing until the 1960's.

 

Quote

A couple of grain silos will be included - in the 1950s this would still be box cars. 

Yep, 6 ft door boxcars.  8 ft and double door cars were for machinery and other goods loaded by forklifts.

[stivesnick]

Dave 

 

Thank you for the information - most helpful.

 

Regards 

 

Nick 

 

[stivesnick]

I have been playing around with possible track plans for the GN depot part of the layout and several options have emerged. Inspiration has come from " Prairie Depots in color" by Morning Sun books.  Unlike many books that tends to focus on the locomotives, this one has many photos of depots taken in the 1950s and 1960s from passing trains or during stops on passenger trains - lots of scenes that demand to be modelled. 

 

What the layout design options have in common is:

• A main track and passing siding
• An industry siding with perhaps 2 or 3 industries along it
• A second siding with more industries 
• A larger factory (suggestions welcome) that has at least 2 tracks with multiple spots for cars
• The interchange track with the interurban line

The differences between them relate to the previous post and what to do with the baggage car that gets detached early morning and spends the day at the depot before being picked up again with the reverse mail train working in the evening. 

 

Option 1 has a double ended siding in front of the depot. The second industry spur is connected to this track. The baggage car is parked outside the depot but leaving room to switch the industries. Operationally it works but not sure how realistic the plan is. 

 

Option 2 has a simple spur for the baggage car. The most realistic option perhaps.

 

Option 3 has the double ended siding behind the depot. This is a common at many stations. However  it may require moving the baggage car during switching which doesn't sound right. 

 

I could combine options 2 and 3. 

 

I have also drawn up option 1 in Anyrail to  see how it might fit in a room. The interurban track is shown as well with the depot being common to both systems. 

 

Sketches enclosed and all comments welcome.

 

Regards 

 

Nick 

 

 

 

 

[stivesnick]

Just spotted I didn't load up track plan Option 3 with the double ended siding behind the depot.

Here it is. Is this a realistic track plan? Any comments welcome.

 

Nick 

[F-UnitMad]

On 19/01/2023 at 21:27, stivesnick said:

Is this a realistic track plan?

With the double-ended team track behind the Depot, yes, I would say so. Not sure the factory spurs work in track planning terms, though - might work out better for a model railway to reverse their direction, sending them to the left off the passing siding.

[stivesnick]

9 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

With the double-ended team track behind the Depot, yes, I would say so. Not sure the factory spurs work in track planning terms, though - might work out better for a model railway to reverse their direction, sending them to the left off the passing siding.

Thanks for the feedback. Depending on the final space available, the depot may end up on a bend so a right ended factory connection may make sense. 

 

The plan is still very much work in progress.

 

Nick 

[CameronL]

On 15/01/2023 at 20:23, stivesnick said:

A larger factory (suggestions welcome)

Hi Nick

 

It might be worthwhile you having a look at Bill Decker's SP Cascades layout blog. Try not to be consumed with jealousy at the size of the space he's got (it's one of those drool-worthy basement layouts so popular across the pond) but it details a lot of the development of rail-served industries, particularly in the town of Eugene. There's a steel farbricator, wood processing plant, bakery, chemical plant, frozen food producer, plastics plant, retail warehouse and more, all with pictures of the structures required. Lots of industries are described in detail. 

 

I think deciding on an industry always revolves around two questions -

 

Have I got (or can I get) the type of rolling stock it needs?

How many types of stock does this industry allow? (It's always the more the merrier for me).

 

Things like a wood processing plant would possibly have the wood coming in on flat cars from a sawmill, and finished product leaving in boxcars. Ditto for the steelworks, with bar or sheet steel coming in and finished product going out. Your two sidings spurs could have a gantry crane for unloading the incoming raw material and a loading dock for loading the end result. 

 

The industrial spur could have anything you wanted. A shunt hog's dream.

 

Hoping this provides some inspiration.

 

Best wishes

 

Cam 

Edited January 22, 2023 by CameronL
Americanising the language

[stivesnick]

2 hours ago, CameronL said:

I think deciding on an industry always revolves around two questions -

 

Have I got (or can I get) the type of rolling stock it needs?

How many types of stock does this industry allow? (It's always the more the merrier for me).

 

Thanks Cameron

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

With the intent to base the model in Minnesota, there was not a lot of heavy industry within a typical town. It may have to be a totally imaginary factory whose purpose is unclear. There could be scope for incoming materials plus coal or oil for power. Outgoing product in box cars plus some waste material to return somewhere. A brewery perhaps?

 

Nick 

[CameronL]

4 hours ago, stivesnick said:

 

Thanks Cameron

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

With the intent to base the model in Minnesota, there was not a lot of heavy industry within a typical town. It may have to be a totally imaginary factory whose purpose is unclear. There could be scope for incoming materials plus coal or oil for power. Outgoing product in box cars plus some waste material to return somewhere. A brewery perhaps?

 

Nick 

Hi again Nick. 

 

Didn't Minnesota have a big logging industry in the '50s?  Something woody might fit the bill. A wood processing plant turning seasoned lumber into finished product (furniture maker?) would need incoming wood, possibly coal or oil for power, and boxcars with things like paint, varnish and hardware, and outgoing boxcars with product and maybe something to take away the pulped waste wood for use in paper making (a covered hopper?)

 

Breweries? Always love a brewery, but in the US most raw materials would be delivered in boxcars. No grain wagons, but carbon dioxide tank cars to make the beer extra-fizzy, the odd coal gondola for the boiler house and ice-hopper reefers to take the finished product away would certainly add variety. 

 

The phrase "beer can tank car" lurked around my frontal lobes for a bit, and I did wonder if beer was ever shipped in bulk. However, further googling revealed that they were short-wheelbase bogie tank cars used for transporting high-density liquids, most of which you really wouldn't want to drink.

 

I sound like I know what I'm talking about here, but my knowledge of US railroads comes from spending some time working in the States and seeing quite a few model railroads there. That's all, folks. If anyone wants to correct me, please do.

 

Best wishes

 

Cam

Edited January 22, 2023 by CameronL
Added a bit

[F-UnitMad]

I've read it somewhere that years ago most Mid-Western towns always had two things - a Baseball Team & a Brewery!!

I think I've also read that the double-ended Team Track behind the Depot was also a Mid-West/Western Railroads "thing" in particular. West of the Mississippi towns grew up around the Railroad, and the direction of the prevailing wind dictated which side of the tracks the industries went on - downwind of the town to take the smells away! So the Depot was on the 'town' side of the tracks and the industries on the other side - hence the phrase "wrong side of the tracks".

But the Team Track ran behind the Depot so that the businesses & townsfolk could collect their goods from the Railroad without having to cross the main line, & being double-ended it could be switched easily by trains from either direction.

 

[stivesnick]

The Feb 23 Model Railroader included a picture of a Great Northern model weed control train in HO. The model used a kit produced by the Great Northern Historical Society 15 years ago. The control car is a converted outside braced box-car with some end windows and a recess in the roof. I assume this area contains some valves to control the weed killer. I also assume that the control car was at the end of the train and was used to control the flow of weed killer rather than used as a driving cab. Anybody have any additional information on this? 

 

Thinking this might be a suitable additional train for my forthcoming layout, I spent a little while looking at a model box car thinking how I could convert it. As the box car body is a single piece, I decided it would probably be easier to build one from scratch. 

 

I used Evergreen N gauge car siding and plastic sections to create the box car. The windows and doors are from Kestrel (Gaugemaster} kits. 

 

Progress photos below. The roof is not yet stuck on and will happen after painting and I have glazed the windows. I will also need to add some lights and think about how to create the spray pipes.

 

Regards 

 

Nick 

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by stivesnick
spelling error

[stivesnick]

Some progress on the weed killing control car. It has been painted, windows glazed and some basic decals and crew added. I managed to find a plastic part from an old kit that looks like the spray nozzles on the end of the wagon. The body has been added to an Atlas box car chassis.

 

The spare box car body has been converted to a grounded box car that will appear on the layout somewhere.

 

Photo enclosed.

 

Nick 

 

 

[stivesnick]

All

 

Like Keith Addenbroke, I also have a Walthers Depot building kit to make whilst waiting for the proper layout building to start. The N gauge version is quite a simple kit, ideal for spending time when it is too hot to be outside. Oddly it did not include any gutters and downpipes so these have been added from plastic strip. 

 

Great Northern depots were generally painted white with grey windows, doors and roof tiles, the natural colours of the kit. I used a car spray on the pieces before removing them from the sprue. Station signs to be added. 

 

Looking at photos of real depots, station external lighting is unclear, with many pictures showing no lighting at all on the platform or mounted on the outside of the building. Given that the daily mixed train might turn up at 2 in the morning, this does appear odd. Does anyone have any thoughts/ideas on what normal practice was?

 

Work in progress photos enclosed below:

 

Nick 

 

 

[F-UnitMad]

On 25/06/2023 at 10:34, stivesnick said:

I also have a Walthers Depot building kit to make.....

....Oddly it did not include any gutters and downpipes so these have been added from plastic strip. 

I've had the same in O Scale, but a search of the Interweb suggests to me that many of these local/rural Depots didn't seem to have guttering & downpipes in reality, either.

Maybe draining the water from a down pipe close to the corner of a wooden building wasn't a bright idea, and it was better to let the rain just fall off the overhang further away from the building itself, also taking into account the lack of a drainage system in early towns, where the railroad Depot might be one of the first buildings put up?

Just trying to get into an 'early American' mindset, which can be hard from another Country. Maybe some of our Stateside members can enlighten us further?

[stivesnick]

4 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

I've had the same in O Scale, but a search of the Interweb suggests to me that many of these local/rural Depots didn't seem to have guttering & downpipes in reality, either.

Maybe draining the water from a down pipe close to the corner of a wooden building wasn't a bright idea, and it was better to let the rain just fall off the overhang further away from the building itself, also taking into account the lack of a drainage system in early towns, where the railroad Depot might be one of the first buildings put up?

Just trying to get into an 'early American' mindset, which can be hard from another Country. Maybe some of our Stateside members can enlighten us further?

 

Good thinking about being the first building in town. Would these buildings have included a toilet? Perhaps a toilet and associated drainage  would have been added later. 

 

One feature of many depots based on photos was a barrel of water outside the building to be used for putting out fires. To be added.

 

Regards 

 

Nick 

[stivesnick]

A progress update.

 

The dreaded house buying process has started and hopefully in a few months I will have a new model railway room to play with. The good news is that the room is slightly bigger than the one used for the concept plan in the earlier post. The bad news is that the door is more in the middle of one of the walls which affects the plan slightly. 

 

Revised concept plan enclosed. The idea would be the build the track in stages starting with the GN Brandon Station area and initially run the layout as a terminus to a temporary fiddle yard before completing the full run around the room.

 

Regards 

 

Nick

Layout concept.pdf

[stivesnick]

All

 

Latest thoughts for the track plan at Brandon station. The GN depot has a passing siding, double ended freight siding behind the depot plus a couple of freight spurs. The SRTC depot has a run around loop, passenger spur, freight siding, car barn and interchange track with the GN. 

 

The quarry spur is now close to the town so would be a shunting move from the town. A temporary fiddle yard would be provided initially before the lines continue around the room in future stages.

 

Any comments and suggestions welcome. 

 

Regards 

 

Nick 

[stivesnick]

 

Some new freight car arrivals that will find use on the new layout. 

 

Firstly some bottom drop gondolas for the local fuel dealer and perhaps the large factory. Having checked the details on the cars, the black car is a renumbered wagon so out of date for the layout, but renumbering back to the original will not be a priority.

 

The "buyer beware" warning was not headed on a pack of 6 reefer cars. I thought they were 40 foot cars to match the ones I already had, but they turned out to be 50 foot cars and mechanically ventilated. Work with a magnifying glass showed a refurbished wagon date of 65 (bad) although difficult to read so could be 55 (good). I could not find any reference to the specific cars numbers either on line or in Great Northern Lines East by Patrick C Dorin. There were pictures of similar cars on-line showing they were built in the 1950s, phew! The layout will feature a couple of food packing plants and the intent is to run a Fruit Extra train on the layout dropping cars off at Brandon and for interchange with the Interurban line.

 

I must now stop buying new stuff until after the house move. 

 

Regards 

 

Nick 

 

 

 

 

 

[stivesnick]

Nearly ready to move house 

 

The new layout room is 4m x 3m - junk storing and bodged baseboard building starting soon!

 

Regards 

 

Nick