Back dating D&S 8t Cattle Wagon (W2)

[Schooner]

Evening knowledge-base all, last* request for your indulgence, please.

 

The D&S W2, IIUC, is suitable post-1905:

 

"...the kit as supplied, which is in the post-1905 condition with oil axleboxes, an updated locking mechanism for the doors, and the Wright-Marillier partition locking bar."

 

 

To depict a typical 'W2' of c.1895, what should be done about the axleboxes - would oil be that unusual? - compartment partition and door locks?

 

Many thanks once again,

 

Schooner

 

*Just as I was thinking that I really must get a copy of the bible rather than relying on the kindness of strangers, as it were, I realised that this is likely the last 4mm GWR wagon kit to cross the workbench for the forseeable. Much as I'd love to improve the library, it's hard to justify at the moment.

 

[magmouse]

The bible isn't actually a lot of help with this, in terms of clear pictures of W2s in your period. However -

 

Diagram W2 built between 1879 and 1883, so I think would have had grease boxes originally - many of the 4-plank wagons built 1887-1902 had grease boxes, but a few much earlier wagons had oil, though this seems to be on a limited basis. Other forum members may be able to shed more light.

 

For you period, I think the partition should be there, with the notched wooden strip on top of the side sheeting to locate it in the different positions. The interlocking mechanism with the doors of course would not, as you are before the Wright-Marillier patent locking bar.

 

The earlier door locking mechanism looks like this:

 

 

The later version has a more complicated mechanism that connects to the drop-down bottom part of the door, and has a joggle in the top section of the vertical rod.

 

Hope that helps -

 

Nick.

 

[drduncan]

Use grease axleboxes - you’ll probably end up losing the springs and w irons in the process so be prepared to insert replacement etched w iron sets. By a coincidence I have 3D prints of grease axleboxes with or without springs….

 

Regarding the Wright-Mariller partition locking device it’s a bit more problematic. I’m trying to remember where I saw a discussion about the date of this device or patents surrounding it - I’m sure it was in one of @Compound2632’s threads or posts.
 

I’ll have a poke around in my photos of the wagon stock books to see if by accident I’ve got any W2s in them and if the Wright-Mariller device fitting dates are recorded, but a working assumption would be on fitting ok oils axle boxes. Before this date of introduction (whenever it was) then there was a ‘standard’ locking device that can be seen (or lack thereof - I don’t think the locking device was prominent) in images of W1 large cattle wagons - there is a picture of a cattle wagon at Perranporth in one of the Middleton press books which I think shows the lack of visibility of the earlier device…

 

Duncan

[drduncan]

A thought: if it’s a genuine D and S kit then the springs and axleboxes might be separate from the w irons, so an easy swap ; many of Danny Pinnock’s designs did this (but not all as I recall). When Adrian of ABS fame took over the kits he may have modified the masters to use his cast w iron and axleboxes integral to the solebar - which calls for a bit of razor sawing and carving to change them. Certainly the masters now have a combined solebar, w iron  and axleboxe set up. I’m sure I remember building one D&S W2 with etched w irons and one from ABS with castings as part of the solebars…

D

[magmouse]

The discussion about patents was in the comments section of one of my blog posts:

 

 

The Marillier patent for the partition locking mechanism is here: https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=GB&NR=190221140A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19030716&DB=&locale=en_EP

 

The patent was applied for in 1902 and granted in 1903, so it is unlikely the device was fitted earlier than that. I would say for your 1895 date, definitely no Marillier locking device.

 

Nick.

 

 

[Craigw]

Here is one in the background.

 

Photographer unknown, negative from my Ebay stash.

 

Craig W

[magmouse]

12 minutes ago, Craigw said:

Here is one in the background.

 

Photographer unknown, negative from my Ebay stash.

 

Craig W

 

Nice - do you have a date for the photo?

 

The cattle wagon you can see most of is an earlier wooden framed type, with curved brake lever and - I think - wooden underframe. It's been updated with oil boxes.

 

Nick.

[richbrummitt]

Was it a curved brake lever or has it been distorted by use? Date is after the introduction of large GW because the W2 has them on the end, however the next vehicle must still have the small G.W.R. (too many dots?).  The large GW on the sides of the W2 are seen in the photo beneath the lime wash on the sides! I’m wondering how much I can save on transfers by employing a similar colouring scheme…

[magmouse]

12 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

Was it a curved brake lever or has it been distorted by use?

 

I doubt it's distortion - curved brake levers were common on earlier GWR wagons.

 

13 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

Date is after the introduction of large GW because the W2 has them on the end, however the next vehicle must still have the small G.W.R. (too many dots?).

 

Yes - or last repainted later, after the end lettering was dropped....

 

14 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

I’m wondering how much I can save on transfers by employing a similar colouring scheme…

 

Yes, indeed! As long as your period is before they stopped using whitewash as a disinfectant and replaced it with other - clear - disinfectants. I think this was in the mid 1920s - there was some discussion a little while ago about that on the forum.

 

Nick.

 

[magmouse]

Just realised I had links to two pictures of GWR cattle wagons in early livery (small 'G.W.R') on Flickr, which may be of use:

 

 

 

 

 

 

The top picture, with the older version of the lettering (G.W.R on the left) doesn't have a partition at all. The bottom pictures shows the arrangement of the partition without the Wright-Marillier interlock.

 

Nick.

 

 

[richbrummitt]

3 hours ago, magmouse said:

Yes - or last repainted later, after the end lettering was dropped....

 

I think end lettering was dropped after lime as a disinfectant was prohibited. The W1 obscured by the tender appears to have no lettering at all.
My guess is still very early C20 but after 1904. How long did 200 last, and a tender such as here; coal rails without infill? Interested to know if @Craigwhas a date with the image as per your Q. 

[Schooner]

Wow, thank you! Questions answered and then some!

 

@drduncan Thank you, that's very kind. However, as they're cast combi W-iron and axlebox units...

...and as I'm out of both etched W-irons and spare grease boxes, I need to have a stock check and put a proper order together for these, wheels, couplings etc.

 

 

[magmouse]

6 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

I think end lettering was dropped after lime as a disinfectant was prohibited. The W1 obscured by the tender appears to have no lettering at all.
My guess is still very early C20 but after 1904. How long did 200 last, and a tender such as here; coal rails without infill? Interested to know if @Craigwhas a date with the image as per your Q. 

 

Looking at the positioning of the lettering on the two pictures I posted, it is high enough on the body sides not to be obscured by the whitewash (sensibly enough). So I think the one half hidden by the tender is in large GW livery, with the W just about visible behind the tender vacuum pipe. 

 

Yes, info on the loco would be helpful.

 

Nick.

[Craigw]

4 hours ago, magmouse said:

 

Looking at the positioning of the lettering on the two pictures I posted, it is high enough on the body sides not to be obscured by the whitewash (sensibly enough). So I think the one half hidden by the tender is in large GW livery, with the W just about visible behind the tender vacuum pipe. 

 

Yes, info on the loco would be helpful.

 

Nick.

 

The loco is former West Midland number 110, she was withdrawn in May 1917. I posted this photo in the GWR modellers group on Facebook and the thought was it was taken at Crewe or Shrewsbury.

 

Regards,

 

Craig

[Compound2632]

On 06/01/2023 at 16:16, Schooner said:

However, as they're cast combi W-iron and axlebox units...

 

You could file the axleboxes down and remove the side ribs, then glue on rectangles of plasticard for front and grease flap lid, as I do with plastic ones. Bit of a poor man / bodger's solution. MJT is your friend if you're in the money.

[Schooner]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

MJT is your friend

 

🤣 Placing that order was my last mouse-click just before checking in on my RMWeb notifications! Thank you for the advice on the modeler's solution, but for the moment I'm still in the market for easy wins.

[Ian Smith]

On 06/01/2023 at 11:36, Craigw said:

Here is one in the background.

 

Photographer unknown, negative from my Ebay stash.

 

Craig W

I don’t think that that wagon is a W2 cattle wagon. I think it is one of the undiagrammed “Large” outside framed cattle wagons. The framing on the ends is different (diagonals come all the way down to the bottom outside corner of the ends) and also the size wording on the end looks more like “LARGE” than “MEDIUM” to me.

Ian