Can we learn from the 17th and 18th century Landscape artists?

[whart57]

I was watching the BBC4 programme Britain's Lost Masterpieces the other night, which covered a couple of landscape paintings. One was eventually attributed to Jan Breughel the Elder's workshop (not his more famous father Pieter) and the other to Thomas Barker of Bath, a notorious early nineteenth century painter of Gainsborough knock-offs.

 

What struck me, particularly in the Breughel, was the handling of figures. These were placed around the canvas in groups that made sense both artistically and in what they were depicted as engaging in. Something we surely aspire to on our layouts, but don't always achieve.

 

[OnTheBranchline]

The most important thing I've ever learned from a painter is don't start a war on two fronts 😆

[BachelorBoy]

On 11/02/2023 at 20:24, whart57 said:

I was watching the BBC4 programme Britain's Lost Masterpieces the other night, which covered a couple of landscape paintings. One was eventually attributed to Jan Breughel the Elder's workshop (not his more famous father Pieter) and the other to Thomas Barker of Bath, a notorious early nineteenth century painter of Gainsborough knock-offs.

 

What struck me, particularly in the Breughel, was the handling of figures. These were placed around the canvas in groups that made sense both artistically and in what they were depicted as engaging in. Something we surely aspire to on our layouts, but don't always achieve.

 

 

Advice I got from a painter: paint what you see, not what you think is there. 

 

For example, we know that trees are green, close up. But when you look at trees in the distance (like most things)  they appear slightly bluer.  That's useful for giving an illusion of depth.

[BachelorBoy]

I'm a great fan of Boomer Diorama on YouTube. He's been a set and scenery builder and designer in film and theatre, and made models professionally for museums. 

 

 

[whart57]

6 hours ago, OnTheBranchline said:

The most important thing I've ever learned from a painter is don't start a war on two fronts 😆

Did Rembrandt do that? 

 

Seriously mate, how big are the shoehorns in your house? 

[Bernard Lamb]

Groups of people?

One is enough.

A street scene in Bow circa 1930 by Henry Silk.

My interest is that the chap in the painting looks rather like my grandfather who actually worked just out of view to the left around that time. Henry Silk painted several scenes in the area that would aid any one modelling the GER and/or NLR.

Bernard

 

 

 

 

[BachelorBoy]

3 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Groups of people?

One is enough.

I think you have missed the point.

[OnTheBranchline]

6 hours ago, whart57 said:

Did Rembrandt do that? 

 

Seriously mate, how big are the shoehorns in your house? 

 

It was only a joke.

Another thing we can learn from painters as well is in terms of the where the horizon is. The Breughel has a horizon at the top of the painting which is interesting because it's another way to give a sense of depth to a scene. 

[TheQ]

I ask SWMBO who paints, if I need advice. Add a bit of red to blue skies to make it more realistic. 

Generally stronger colours in the foreground, lighter more faded in the back ground. Long before SWMBO, ie at school I was taught that. I've got a lot of background purple heather that needs toning down...

 

As for groups this applies to cattle and sheep as well. But they do not face each other, but back sides to the wind. Though there is some research that, if no wind is around, on level ground they tend to align themselves north south.

I'm going to need to plant hundreds of sheep on my layout. They'll be in groups facing the same way, except for natural sheep trails ( not herded) where they follow each other on a path...

Edited February 13, 2023 by TheQ

[AY Mod]

44 minutes ago, OnTheBranchline said:

Breughel has a horizon at the top of the painting which is interesting because it's another way to give a sense of depth to a scene. 

 

That looks rubbish on backscenes; many have the horizon way too high. It's alright for Breughel sitting up a tree but for modelling the horizon is best kept low with no flat ground showing above track level, only hills.

[BachelorBoy]

5 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

That looks rubbish on backscenes; many have the horizon way too high. It's alright for Breughel sitting up a tree but for modelling the horizon is best kept low with no flat ground showing above track level, only hills.

 

A fair point, But then most layouts are viewed from a viewpoint that is a scale hundreds of feet up in the air. 

 

[Ozexpatriate]

11 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said:

A fair point, But then most layouts are viewed from a viewpoint that is a scale hundreds of feet up in the air. 

But photographed closer to rail level - other than the 'overview' shots.

[Huw Griffiths]

On 13/02/2023 at 23:31, BachelorBoy said:

A fair point, But then most layouts are viewed from a viewpoint that is a scale hundreds of feet up in the air.

 

On 13/02/2023 at 23:43, Ozexpatriate said:

But photographed closer to rail level - other than the 'overview' shots.

 

AKA "airliner view" - or "fly by view" - reputed to be very popular amongst show visitors passing show layouts that don't hold their interest - layouts reputed to have been booked / advertised on a basis of either "number of layouts at the show" or "layouts by the metre" (allegedly).

 

I've been rather interested by the talk about different light - different colours - and those colours being more or less vivid in the foreground and background - also how playing around with this stuff can improve or impair the perspective of distance.

 

I seem to recall Phil Parker doing a simple demo about this - essentially using an "export" photo plank and several lengths of LED lighting tape, which could be switched on / off and dimmed.

 

Although there wasn't a lot to this demo, it held my interest because it offered the chance to see the very noticeable effect on a layout of straightforward changes.

 

 

In a sense, this brings me (back?) to some potential discussion topics regarding show layouts:

• What ignites / destroys your interest in show layouts?
   
• Are you still (have you ever been) interested in expansive scenery on layouts (at shows / in magazines / in TV and videos) - or would you prefer an emphasis on other topics (eg operation, animations, technical aspects, interesting locos and rolling stock)?

 

I wonder what various people think.

 

 

[BachelorBoy]

4 hours ago, Huw Griffiths said:

 

 

I've been rather interested by the talk about different light - different colours - and those colours being more or less vivid in the foreground and background - also how playing around with this stuff can improve or impair the perspective of distance.

 

I seem to recall Phil Parker doing a simple demo about this - essentially using an "export" photo plank and several lengths of LED lighting tape, which could be switched on / off and dimmed.

 

 

 

This guy uses theatrical lighting techniques and equipment for lighting ... a mixture of red, green, and blue lights  so he can simulate different times of day (and ultraviolet for night scenes). He also has a fog machine and strobes to simulate lightning, and a Dolby 5.1 sound system.

 

https://www.vikaschander.com/layout-lighting/

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by BachelorBoy
added pix

[BachelorBoy]

I think shadows make a model seem a lot more realistic. Boomer Diorama uses pelmets and controlled directional lighting (rather than uniform lighting) to good effect here.

 

[Reorte]

9 hours ago, Huw Griffiths said:

In a sense, this brings me (back?) to some potential discussion topics regarding show layouts:

• What ignites / destroys your interest in show layouts?
   
• Are you still (have you ever been) interested in expansive scenery on layouts (at shows / in magazines / in TV and videos) - or would you prefer an emphasis on other topics (eg operation, animations, technical aspects, interesting locos and rolling stock)?

 

I wonder what various people think.

That's a very hard question to answer to be honest, because I find what captures my interest at a show isn't always what I expect. The only vaguely common factor I can think of is "near the entrance," because I do tend to spend more time watching the first layout I see that has something to it. But overall it's weird, because I've sometimes spent quite a bit of time watching layouts of prototypes I'm not interested in in 1:1, or even actively dislike, and at others I've ended up not spending much time watching a layout I was really looking forward to seeing beforehand. A good layout's a good layout whatever it's of I suppose.

 

An ideal layout to me concentrates on getting technical interest (not that I'm often in a position to judge it's accuracy!) but is well placed in the scenery to create an overall feel. Often the most enthralling layouts are those that can create an atmosphere. Interesting locos and stock matters a lot if I've got some idea of what's appropriate, and considerably less when I've not got a clue what's right for the time and place.

 

edit to add: what destroys my interest are operators who appear to resent being there and having people looking at their layout. Fortunately they're not all that common.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Reorte

[Huw Griffiths]

Wow!

 

Well what else can I say?

 

Excellent comments - and as for the photos / examples ... !

 

 

Turning first to layouts - there are likely to be limited opportunities for interesting track formations in the sort of space many of us are likely to have at home. The late Carl Arendt's microlayout site showed this. However, a number of contributors there came up with some very clever schemes to maximise the use of every square millimetre. (Some of these people are - or were - also members of this site.)

 

Despite the potential limitations, I'm often drawn to smaller layouts. This might be because it's probably all I'd be able to aspire to - or it might be because I'm interested in seeing how people have addressed the challenge of being "space starved".

 

Alternatively, it might be because I find it hard to get excited about what seems like one train an hour - running along a single track - through hectares of green fields. I get the idea that a lot of stretches of real railway are probably like this - and a vast area of greenery might look pretty in a magazine - but this won't make me want to buy a magazine and it almost certainly won't get my attention at a show. Sorry guys - probably not for me.

 

I like to see trains moving - but perhaps not attempting a new speed record on a "tail chaser" - so I guess this rules out "Mallard" or a HST at "full stretch" style offerings. For some reason, I'm also not exactly a fan of "trains" with faces on them - sorry Th*m*s!

 

 

What does this leave that I'm likely to spend time looking at? Probably more than you might imagine, actually.

 

I've mentioned in the past that my earliest memory is of travelling on a Blackpool tram. That was 55 years ago - I've been fascinated by trams ever since (although I particularly like single deck articulated tramcars and LRVs).

 

As for trains, narrow gauge often interests me, because it looks different to what I'd otherwise see. For some time, I've also been thinking of building some freelance NG conversions - especially passenger railcars, small Diesel or electric locos and coaches. I don't know if I'll ever build them.

 

I can remember seeing "Rivendell" at a Cardiff show - and keeping on returning to the layout. I can also recall "Lavernock Light Railway" having a similar effect on me at Barry & Penarth open days. Neither of these layouts are enormous - neither have particularly large train rosters - chances are that neither would have kept manufaturers of track and signals in business for very long - but these layouts just interested me (and still would). I guess I just liked what I saw.

 

As for "standard gauge", I like smaller steam locos (Panniers etc) and railmotors.

 

However, the fact that I'm a member of DEMU probably says all you need to know about my main interests - that's right - Diesel (or gasoline) engined and electric - mainly (but not solely) stuff I might be able to remember seeing in operation. (I quite like stuff from the "rail blue" and "sectorisation" eras.)

 

Of course, this doesn't stop me being interested in earlier stuff - like GWR "razor edge" railcars (especially the 2 car sets) - and some pioneer railcars. Yes - I like "passenger" stuff - especially railcars and multiple units.

 

Saying that, I'm not a fan of trains running aimlessly along the same line for days on end. I like to see some variety - passing loops - sidings - stuff like that. I probably wouldn't complain about watching even a relatively basic depot scene for a while.

 

 

However, this wasn't what prompted me to ask what draws our attention. In a recent Zoom meeting of a MERG "Special Interest Group", one guy commented about how "operations" seem to feature prominently in layouts in some countries - but not so much in others (and even less in UK shows and particularly magazines - where scenery / layout descriptions and reviews of models some of us can't afford fill more pages than some of us might like).

 

 

OK - the fact that I'm a member of MERG might suggest that I'm interested in some technical stuff - how to do various things etc - but you might be surprised to learn that I don't "do" DCC (and I don't think I'm alone). Some people might remember MERG show stands of the past - with various kits for sale to their members. A few years ago, there was a conscious decision to stop kit sales at shows (they've got a very efficient, volunteer-run, online order facility).

 

These days, their displays are more likely to feature completed kits actually doing things - some of them involve DCC - a lot don't. You're also just as likely to see (externally sourced) Arduino or Raspberry Pi boards being used to control stuff.

 

Incidentally, when I joined MERG, kits didn't feature in my decision. (I eventually bought some - about a year after I joined - and they're great!) It's 35 years since I finished my Electrical & Electronic Engineering HND - and I hadn't used most of what I learnt for quite a few years. I rather like the idea of an electronics club for railway modellers (but also actively encouraging "non-experts" to get involved). In other words, I saw an opportunity to revisit some of the electronics stuff I was struggling to remember.

 

 

[BachelorBoy]

On 11/02/2023 at 20:24, whart57 said:

I was watching the BBC4 programme Britain's Lost Masterpieces the other night, which covered a couple of landscape paintings. One was eventually attributed to Jan Breughel the Elder's workshop (not his more famous father Pieter) and the other to Thomas Barker of Bath, a notorious early nineteenth century painter of Gainsborough knock-offs.

 

What struck me, particularly in the Breughel, was the handling of figures. These were placed around the canvas in groups that made sense both artistically and in what they were depicted as engaging in. Something we surely aspire to on our layouts, but don't always achieve.

 

Whart57: This thread's come up with some interesting stuff, but it's gone a bit off topic. 

 

Anything you want to add to bring it back? Have you used Breughelian groups in your modelling yet?

 

BB

 

 

[whart57]

One point that came out of that BBC4 programme was that in the 17th century most paintings were collaborative ventures. The Breughel workshop was that, a workshop. The experts concluded that the Breughel landscape found in bits in the Birmingham art gallery store was mostly by a collaborator of the Breughels called Joos de Momper. He did the basic hills and trees while one of the Breughels, possibly Jan the Elder but more likely Jan the Younger, did the figures. I suspect I need to find my Joos de Momper.

Edited February 16, 2023 by whart57

[southern42]

The placing of individuals and groups of people on a layout, whatever size, have enabled me to tell what is going on at:

A particular place: station, garden, dockside, shop, hotel, Visitor Centre,* new apartment block*

An event: Royal Visit with Morris Dancers and school party audience, Preservation railway demo day* 

Type of work: Window cleaner, Signal man, Bus driver & Bus conductor, Ship's captain, Dockmaster

Time of day: Postmen and Bin men working in the morning/early afternoon, perhaps

 

It has also helped to:

Direct the eye along or across the layout: Morris dancers > window cleaner > Poirot, Japp and Hastings > Postman > Bin men > Gardener

From the other end, looking back: the gardener can be seen beyond a boy trainspotter who can be spotted on the bridge as the trains pass under and disappear

Draw attention to a particular part of a scene that may be overlooked: mowing the lawn, shovelling coal, planting flowers on the allotment

Enhance the perspective: larger figures at the front, smaller figures at the back - there is an incredible diversity of height/size produced in 00 gauge figures, add in Ho figures and 3D figures, and there is plenty to choose from for a particular location.

 

Similar can be said of vehicles.

In particular, on one stretch of roadway going diagonally from front to back, the road narrowed slightly. I had three vehicles I wanted to use, all coming towards that party of Morris dancers in the middle of the High Street. I found putting the largest vehicle at the front and the smallest at the back, not only enhanced the perspective but gave a more balanced picture overall. They were also carefully placed so as to draw the eye onto or away from each other and other things around them. 

Placement: One bus was at the high street end and hid the end of the board, a motorcyclist and lorry were coming onto scene from the other end drawing the eye down to the station, and a bus was parked below in the station carpark, providing more interest with driver and conductor standing beside it chatting. A lone scooter stood at the other end of the station building with goods lorry trackside waiting for the goods train.

The placement of aircraft, boats, ships, barges, or just a mast showing above dock level in the background can all tell or add to a scene or story.

 

I use the same strategy for animals and birds, objects, trees and shrubs, lighting, you name it, I have probably tried it.  It may not always work, but I find it adds so much more enjoyment and knowledge to the whole process of modelling especially when I refer to the real thing, which artists invariably do, for inspiration and ideas.

 

* Visitor centre, apartment block, and railway demo day on 4ft x 1ft 00 gauge Avago

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by southern42

[southern42]

duplicate deleted!

Edited July 15, 2023 by southern42

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 15/02/2023 at 02:05, Huw Griffiths said:

What ignites / destroys your interest in show layouts?

Sound effects that bear little relation to reality. The painters have never bothered with them at all, perhaps that suggests something?

 

On 15/02/2023 at 02:05, Huw Griffiths said:

...would you prefer an emphasis on other topics (eg operation...

Accurately observed and replicated operation, first and foremost. Railway modelling should lead the show, all else is secondary. Never yet been to a diorama exhibition: good quality scenic modelling on a well operated layout adds atmosphere.

 

Current champion in the above respects: Copenhagen Fields.

[whart57]

17 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Accurately observed and replicated operation, first and foremost. Railway modelling should lead the show, all else is secondary. Never yet been to a diorama exhibition: good quality scenic modelling on a well operated layout adds atmosphere.

 

Accurately observed and replicated operation means utter boredom for most viewers. The skill lies in recreating the essence of accurate operation while still engaging the viewer. In any case I still wait for someone to replicate loose shunting in a believable way on a model, so even on the best layouts bits of the operational day are left off.

[melmoth]

34 minutes ago, whart57 said:

In any case I still wait for someone to replicate loose shunting in a believable way on a model, so even on the best layouts bits of the operational day are left off.

 

Or horse shunting for that matter

[BachelorBoy]

47 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

Accurately observed and replicated operation means utter boredom for most viewers. The skill lies in recreating the essence of accurate operation while still engaging the viewer.

 

Model railways can be a bit like making a film based on a true story.