Less boring, more realistic?

[ACR2023]

Hi everyone,

 

After years of having an 8 x 4 foot layout on a spare bed, which spent as much time leaning against the wall as it did set up, we have moved and I finally have room (albeit small) for a permanent layout.

 

I have built the bare bones of an open frame baseboard but haven't finalised anything yet until I know the position of the track and points etc.  I am totally flexible with regard to the central area, in fact the only thing that is set in stone is the extent of the layout, marked by the blue lines on the first plan and enforced by the wife!  Access will either be duck under or via a hinged section. 

 

I am going to stick with OO, and will probably choose code 75.  My layout will be set in the steam era, probably between the wars and will be mainly GWR, no specific location, but I prefer villages and rolling countryside over built up areas.  

 

I have been trying to design a layout which will be fun to operate, but to be honest, have failed miserably!  My first attempt was 3 loops, whilst this allows continuous running of several trains it is hardly realistic, the 2nd has 2 loops and a 'there & back' branch feeding the main line station.

 

My third and fourth plans are a variation on a theme, but basically a single folded loop which would (hopefully) provide a more realistic operation in that a train departing from the station on an up line would reappear on the down line rather than just keep reappearing on the up line.  

 

If the end points of the folded loops were disguised by scenery, it might add to the illusion that the route was not just a loop.

The downside to these folded loops are that they take a large amount of the available real estate and they do not allow for a fiddle yard, goods handling facilities or even, a second loop. 

 

I have tried to use 3rd and 4th radius curves on the attached plans, as much as possible and have also tried experimenting with Peco curved points, but can't quite get to grips with the geometry. 

The construction of baseboards, electrical wiring, track laying, and scenery don't phase me, but I seem to have drawn a blank with regard to planning the layout. 

 

I don't like asking for help, but after hiding in the shadows on RMWeb for months, leafing through numerous publications, and trawling the internet for inspiration, I have to finally admit defeat!

 

I am hoping that the collective mind might be able to help........

 

As previously mentioned, I cannot stray out of the size confines I have been allocated, beyond that, almost anything goes!  I am not adverse to using a multi-layered approach either, I haven't tried it yet as I am not au fait with the drawing program but from other posts understand that I have to keep gradients to around 2%.

 

I have read much about helices (helixes?), do you think that one of these in the top left might allow a fiddle yard below the main deck? 

 

If a hidden fiddle yard can't be accommodated, I would like to disguise it as a shunting / goods yard.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read this and for any help you are able to provide.

 

Russ

[Harlequin]

Hi Russ,

What's the significance of the black area?

Is there a doorway opening in somewhere?
Are there walls all round the outside of the 12*12 area?

Does the 6*6 cut out literally have to be 6ft square or could a small corner be nibbled out of it? (I think that could make a big difference to what you could do.)

[Oldddudders]

I think many C21 modellers would be jealous of your space, so there is no doubt a most interesting layout could be built here in 4mm. But before trying to draw plans, perhaps a little exercise to list what you would like might help us to help you. Your designs largely enable trains to run and run. Nothing wrong with that - but is it what you really want? 

 

As you will be well aware, many people, however generous their space, opt for a BLT, because that can have all sorts of facilities that make up a period railway scene. A GWR 1930s layout will fit perfectly with that idea, and may appear almost spacious - although most of us discover layouts simply eat space! But it will require every train to be individually controlled - no letting them rip while you have a coffee and watch. So a single terminus station, with all the bells and whistles, approached by a curve leading into a fiddle yard, might be one design to consider. But if you are looking to run Castles and Kings on express services, then it's not going to look quite so convincing, perhaps. 

 

Thus I return to my list idea - tell us what you want, and maybe someone will provide the perfect setting. 

[ACR2023]

5 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Hi Russ,

What's the significance of the black area?

Is there a doorway opening in somewhere?
Are there walls all round the outside of the 12*12 area?

Does the 6*6 cut out literally have to be 6ft square or could a small corner be nibbled out of it? (I think that could make a big difference to what you could do.)

Hi Phil,

 

Thank you for your reply, the black area forms part of the structure for the stairwell.  There is an access door for the consumer unit and under stairs storage as marked on the attached plan - 1  

 

Access to the area is via a fairly narrow corridor - 2 on the plan.  

 

Walls - 3, - 4, and - 5 are solid walls. Wall - 6 is an internal stud wall.

 

Whilst the initial brief was that access to the understairs cupboard remains unrestricted, including allowing madam to access her considerable shoe collection - I might be able to 'borrow' a small corner of the cut out, especially if I can demonstrate the benefit!  What she won't tolerate is having to move anything to get to the cupboard (trust me, I have tried!!) I have marked this area yellow for clarity.

 

Russ

 

p.s.  I should add that I will not need a workbench in this area.

Edited February 16, 2023 by ACR2023
added p.s

[ACR2023]

5 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

I think many C21 modellers would be jealous of your space, so there is no doubt a most interesting layout could be built here in 4mm. But before trying to draw plans, perhaps a little exercise to list what you would like might help us to help you. Your designs largely enable trains to run and run. Nothing wrong with that - but is it what you really want? 

 

As you will be well aware, many people, however generous their space, opt for a BLT, because that can have all sorts of facilities that make up a period railway scene. A GWR 1930s layout will fit perfectly with that idea, and may appear almost spacious - although most of us discover layouts simply eat space! But it will require every train to be individually controlled - no letting them rip while you have a coffee and watch. So a single terminus station, with all the bells and whistles, approached by a curve leading into a fiddle yard, might be one design to consider. But if you are looking to run Castles and Kings on express services, then it's not going to look quite so convincing, perhaps. 

 

Thus I return to my list idea - tell us what you want, and maybe someone will provide the perfect setting. 

Good afternoon Olddudders,

 

Thank you for your message and for my homework 😉

 

I hear what you are saying about just running trains, I have seen this discussion on many a forum and it is a very valid question. 

 

I would very much like to model a BLT, but the grandchildren would certainly prefer to see at least one loco continuously running, especially if the route was not obvious and could be varied. 

 

Russ

 

 

 

 

[rovex]

If you could work a gradient in you could have one reverse loop above the over which would free up real estate 

[Steam Revival]

Hi Rus,

 

Take a look at these two images from Pinterest, which I came across after reading your post.

 

The dimensions of the colour image are about the same as your space, not sure about the b&w image.

 

Good luck

[Nearholmer]

Designs for operation by Mister Tickle.

 

 

 

I also suspect that they are designs for US coarse-scale 0 gauge, which doesn’t make your arms any longer, but does often go with building “benchwork” robust enough to stand on to reach into a difficult spot.

But, the topology of the coloured one is very ingenious, and might fit your wants if the terminus was pulled forward and round a bit, and a pop-up hole added for emergency access to the lower rear track where the terminus is now.

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

But, the topology of the coloured one is very ingenious, and might fit your wants if the terminus was pulled forward and round a bit, and a pop-up hole added for emergency access to the lower rear track where the terminus is now.

 

 

Echoes of @Harlequin's caravan railway.

 

Edit: here in case anyone hasn't seen it:

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Flying Pig

[DCB]

I would try to round off those sharp corners.   As long as the  radius away from the sharp inside corner remains constant it won't restrict movement.  Conversely the other corner will be really awkward to get round or reach across so rounding that would help.   I curved the corners on my spare bedroom layout and would have on my later "Bed" layout if it had not had to fit on a double bed.  With the sharp corners gone you could put a station and the focal point of the layout across that diagonal.

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by DCB

[Steam Revival]

11 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Designs for operation by Mister Tickle.

Do you mean that your arms are not 12 foot long? 🦧 🤣🤣🤣

 

point taken lol!

[Harlequin]

The OP wants something "more realistic" so I think he needs ideas that are stepping away from trainset-style designs, straights around the walls with sharp curves in the corners.

 

It is a difficult space to use effectively, though, especially with the access required to the under-stairs cupboard.

 

@ACR2023 Would SWMBO accept the railway going through the cupboard, I wonder? I.e. the whole 12ft square space being available for the railway, with a generous operating well in the middle accessed by a hinged lifting section at roughly location 2. The hinged section would be easy for anyone to use, could be left open when the railway is not running and the cupboard would be easier to get into because there would be more space in front of the cupboard doors at location 1.

 

The tracks would be quite high up in the cupboard, set back from the doors and would not take up much room. As a negotiating point, you could maybe offer to build some extra shelving at the same time as the railway...

 

😃

Edited February 18, 2023 by Harlequin

[Chimer]

Schematic only, to see what might be done in the space.

 

 

Very similar to DCB really with the main station on the curve nearest the entry point.  22.5"/24.5" radius on the mainline, 65" radius through the "junction", though the pointwork needed to make it a junction would play havoc with the smooth curve.  Branch line rising from the junction to a terminus bottom right, over storage loops (which could probably be set up just to send a sequence of mainline trains through the scene while you get your realism from operating the branch).  Could try to develop the details if anywhere meeting your requirements ........

Edited February 18, 2023 by Chimer

[RobinofLoxley]

The OP could have a look at the recent thread started by @itg to see the dilemmas but also introduce the idea of gradients etc

[Flying Pig]

I'm still thinking of @Harlequin's old layout, where a spacious branch terminus was the main feature.  I hope people can follow the following sketch: the magenta section represents the station (hatched section) and the branch decending to a low level loop (light blue).  Alternative methods of returning to the terminus are indicated by dark blue (return loop) or purple (triangular junction - probably more fun).

 

 

[AndrueC]

Does it have to be OO? If you switch to N you'd be doubling the amount of space you have. But it has to be said that N doesn't do shunting very well and is more difficult if you want highly detailed and realistic dioramas.

[ACR2023]

4 hours ago, AndrueC said:

Does it have to be OO? If you switch to N you'd be doubling the amount of space you have. But it has to be said that N doesn't do shunting very well and is more difficult if you want highly detailed and realistic dioramas.

Hi AndrueC,

 

Thanks for your message, sorry, yes it does have to be OO, I am heading into retirement and won't be able to invest in a new set of running stock, in addition, N is far too small for my dinner plate hands

 

Russ

[ACR2023]

5 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

The OP could have a look at the recent thread started by @itg to see the dilemmas but also introduce the idea of gradients etc

Hi Robin,

 

 yes I have found ITG's post very interesting, thank you

[ACR2023]

9 hours ago, Harlequin said:

@ACR2023 Would SWMBO accept the railway going through the cupboard, I wonder? I.e. the whole 12ft square space being available for the railway, with a generous operating well in the middle accessed by a hinged lifting section at roughly location 2. The hinged section would be easy for anyone to use, could be left open when the railway is not running and the cupboard would be easier to get into because there would be more space in front of the cupboard doors at location 1.

 

The tracks would be quite high up in the cupboard, set back from the doors and would not take up much room. As a negotiating point, you could maybe offer to build some extra shelving at the same time as the railway...

Hi Phil,

 

Unfortunately, this is a total no-go!  Not only would 'herself' throw all of her toys out of the pram, but there is too much going on in the cupboard, water pipes,  electrical cables, consumer units, soil pipe stair treads etc.  Plus the sacred footwear ;-)

 

I agree, it is a difficult space to use!

 

 

[ACR2023]

Dear all,

 

Thank you for your suggestions, I really appreciate your support.

 

@Steam Revivalthank you for those images and for pointing me toward Pinterest

@DCB, @Flying Pig, @Chimerthank you for your ideas,

 

I particularly like the thought of having a continuous loop (to keep the grandkids occupied as well as a BLT (possibly on a raised level) 

[RobinofLoxley]

This is quite a tricky size of room. Any time the available space deviates from a rectangle with sides in a ratio of 1.6:1 or less there are challenges, and when the shape is more irregular still, the challenges mount. This shape has six right angle corners and without any special analysis of that, consensus appeared straight away that one of them had to be ironed out. Personally I sketched something with two taken out. Its those extra corners that emphasise the train set feel.

 

Its very difficult to see how the space can be filled without running something approaching a perimeter loop, and personally I think a single track loop in that space would be a bit ridiculous, as it would scale down the corresponding activities associated with it. OK if you reallllly want a lot of scenery and few trains.

 

If you didnt want a loop then an alternative, covered at War and Peace length in the thread on Minories which is adjacent to this one as I write, would be a Terminus on one long wall leading out to basically a fiddle yard at the end of the other. A lot of the track plans on that thread have been lost but helpfully another one has appeared in scale specific TT125. That kind of approach doesnt really allow an additional loop as it has to be routed behind everything and looks very odd.

 

My doodle is for a 2 track roundy with a fairly long rising branch (shown in Magenta) to an elevated terminus (Pink). There are some different places where the Terminus could be located, I have shown one option which requires a bridging section. If you were greedy you could have both I suppose. There have been suggestions about including a reversing loop which requires a bridge section, breaking up the central operating space, but if the station allows arrivals to cross sides then that does the job. If there a definition of Era I missed, it, steam is assumed with the turntable.

 

There is an access top right as otherwise that area cant be reached, except by Mr Tickle.

 

This is by no means a finished item; not only that but I tend to design in a clockwise direction so this is a bit similar to something I drew in another thread. Another thing is that it done in code 100 and I havnt checked code 75 to see if the same bits exist.

 

Looks like the bottom has been cut off......

Edited February 19, 2023 by RobinofLoxley

[ACR2023]

 

Hi Robin,

 

Thank you for your very comprehensive message and for you track plan, 

 

17 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

This is quite a tricky size of room.

 

it certainly is tricky, it has been driving me nuts trying to think of different permutations

 

17 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

If there a definition of Era I missed, it, steam is assumed with the turntable.

 

you are spot on with Era,  it is indeed steam and a turntable would be a welcome addition, I already have a Peco turntable which I am sure could be resurrected.

 

I agree, a single loop does seem to be a waste of space and would be limiting, whilst your proposal offers plenty of operating alternatives, which is what I am really after, not only for the building / scenery challenge, but also to keep small people interested during their visits.

 

You have a couple of crossings on the plan, may I ask if they are single slips, double slips or crossings?

 

May I also ask what is happening in the lower part of the plan?

 

Thank you once again for the time and effort you have put in!

 

Russ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RobinofLoxley]

@acr2033 I will post the full plan later.

Edited February 20, 2023 by RobinofLoxley

[RobinofLoxley]

For some reason its possible to remove an item under edit but not re-insert something.

 

The missing area at the bottom has the BLT on a hill with the main lines tunnelling underneath; to the right are some sidings that also disappear under the BLT and that wouldnt really work- needs revising. Generally I find Anyrail plans need a lot of bit by bit refinement.

 

The slips that I used; on the RHS side of the station it can be double or single, its a space saving way of allowing trains travelling anticlockwise, for example from the branch, to terminate on clockwise platforms for either yard access or so that they can return on the right line. Having a double allows both platforms to be used. At the entrance to the goods sidings on the LHS I have shown a double but a single would cover the intended uses. The extra move allowed by a double would be for an anticlockwise moving train to cross tracks and then run back clockwise towards the station, and I cant see a good reason to need that.

 

Other points - most of the curves have third radius inside and fourth radius (created by drawing commands with flexitrack) on the outer, in every case. Straight sections are a combination of setrack elements with flexi track sections- its easier to draw with defined straights in some places. Other curves have flexi both sides and these are 'illustrative' ie can be varied. In code 75 the setrack type straights and curves used in the Anyrail drawing are not available. It about halves the drawing time using setrack compared to having everything flexi. Most turnouts are medium with some short ones in the loco sidings - these do result in tracks very close together.

 

Platform lengths are about 135cm at best which is 4 coaches and a locomotive in most formations. The station can be lengthened a bit. There is no fiddle yard - Im not a fan, I think that the tail wags the dog too many times when a fiddle yard is involved or desired in a situation where there is reasonable space to lay track.

 

BTW, one difficulty with the design is baseboards. Having the station on the angle and a fair way out from the wall means difficulty with baseboard sizes and shapes, as you have to exercise caution laying turnouts over baseboard joins, or near them.

[ACR2023]

Good morning all,

 

@RobinofLoxley

 

Thank you so much for all of your assistance, the design looks great!

 

I think the next step for me is to print out some of the point & switch templates from Peco and to try to 'map out' the design 1:1.  

 

Thank you also for the reminder about points and baseboard joints.

 

I have a couple of rolls of wall lining paper left over from decorating to simulate base boards which will help to plan joints and the position of scenery elements such as bridges, tunnels, rivers, and roads etc!

 

Russ