Triang Blue Pullman motor bogie replacement wheelsets

[exet1095]

I wonder if anyone is able to help? I have just acquired a mint Blue Pullman from the early 1960s. It runs beautifully on the rolling road, but the knurled wheelsets will not run through code 100 points.

 

There was some earlier advice on replacing the driving wheelsets; but the suppliers mentioned seem to have vanished. Does anyone know if there are suitable replacement driving axles available to drop in? I am not sure I have the tools available to knock wheels off the axles and drill out coach wheel centres to fit those…

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

Paul

[seahorse]

I got mine from Peter's Spares

 

good luck!

[Michael Hodgson]

Those wheels don't run well on code 100 stright track either.  The flanges run along the top of the chairs and make a hell of a row.  I had one at an exhibition decades ago and on the second day I was given a pair of replacement wheelsets by the trader on the next stand - he'd had enough of the noise!  So they were available, with compatible worm wheels, but I'm afraid I don't know what wheels they were though.

[cypherman]

Good hunting on finding some wheels. I need a set for the Triang Bil2 emu.

 

[exet1095]

50 minutes ago, seahorse said:

I got mine from Peter's Spares

 

good luck!

Thanks, I’ll call them tomorrow.

 

Paul

[SteveyDee68]

If anyone does come up with a source of wheelsets, I shall gladly add that information to the Blue Pullman thread I put together a while ago where I tried to bring together any and all avenues to improving the original Triang model!

 

For those of us with pretensions towards the Bachmann model but not the necessary funds!!

 

Steve S

[The Johnster]

Seeing as the power bogie on this model is incorrect, being from the 2-BIL, it might be worth your while looking for a completely different cheap 2h bogie that would not be any more incorrect and might run better, Lima 116 perhaps, or Hornby 110, both the same 8'6" scale wheelbase?  Incidentally, I found to my surprise that the knurled wheels from a Triang Dokafority diesel shunter ran happily through my Peco Streamline code 100 turnouts as well as on plain code 100 track, as did a 'Polly', though this did not have knurled wheels.  Dokafority initally hit the check rails with the flanges, so I eased the back-to-backs a little.

 

While we are being critical of Triang models and generic bogies, the unpowered bogies on the 2-BIL, Blue Pullman, and Metrocammell dmu are the same B1 BR bogies they used incorrectly on the GLV utility van and the shorty clerestories, plus later Collett, Collett cod Maunsell, and Thompson coaches, and the loco hauled Pullmans.  Metrocammell and IIRC the TC range Budd Railcar used the 2-BIL power bogie as well.  Even as a kid I noticed and complained.  In fact the recently re-issued shorty clerestories retain the incorrect B1s, but as an altered tooling to plug in rather than rivet fit to the bodyshell!  I've made mine into ersatz 8'6" Deans by glueing footboards on to them, with reliefs cut out to fit around the axleboxes, passable at a distance in poor light (by which I mean the next street in thick fog).

 

For upgrading the Blue Pullman bogies, I'd suggest the outer frames from a Kitmaster Blue Pullman coach bogie if you can find one.  These models would be good for lengthening your set anyway and providing Kitchen Cars, and if you find a damaged one with good bogie outer frames...  Trouble is the price from some eBay chisellers would go a fair way to funding a new Bachmann set...

Edited February 19, 2023 by The Johnster

[Captain Slough]

Power bogie for a 1980s Lima GWR railcar will fit easily into the Triang bodyshell and looks more like the original bogie than the Triang one does

[exet1095]

8 minutes ago, Captain Slough said:

Power bogie for a 1980s Lima GWR railcar will fit easily into the Triang bodyshell and looks more like the original bogie than the Triang one does

Thank you, but as the motor bogie runs beautifully, I’d like to keep using it. The issue is the size of the flanges. I have an AL1 which I managed to get going today; it has a very similar bogie, but with different sideframes. The wheels are also knurled, but have ever so slightly smaller flanges, and so it (and its contemporary Hymek) run without issue. Actually, my wife assumed the AL1 was sound-fitted as the wheels do make a roaring not dissimilar to that she used to hear at the Liverpool Street buffer stops in the 1990s!

[Halvarras]

Almost certainly of little practical value now but back in the 1970s replacement brass wheels to RP25 profile used to be available from Millholm (Milholm? Millholme?) Models. They came in 12mm and 14mm sizes, plain or grooved for traction tyres and insulated or uninsulated, designed for use with Tri-ang/Hornby steel knurled axles and plastic insulating bushes. I fitted the 12mm wheels to a Tri-ang Met-Cam DMU at the time, and a set of 14mm wheels I still had in stock to a Dokafority (not shor that's the rite spellin.....😁) diesel shunter within the last couple of years. They could also be used to rewheel Class 31/37/Hymek etc using the one-piece nylon axle/gear (uninsulated unnecessary of course in this application). I still have my 1967 Hymek and a 1993-built MTK D600 Warship on Tri-ang EM2 bogies fitted with these wheels. I'm not sure when they became unavailable.

 

8 minutes ago, Captain Slough said:

Power bogie for a 1980s Lima GWR railcar will fit easily into the Triang bodyshell and looks more like the original bogie than the Triang one does

I think the external drive shaft will look a little out-of-place.........we are still talking Blue Pullman here, aren't we?!

[Captain Slough]

Just now, Halvarras said:

I think the external drive shaft will look a little out-of-place.........we are still talking Blue Pullman here, aren't we?!

 

We are, and the overall shape of the GWR motor bogie is still closer to the origjnal class 251 than the Triang block is. Although a few seconds work with a file will get it even closer....

[stewartingram]

I've said this before, but when using code 100 I managed ok with Triang wheels of all types. I adjusted the b2b with care, until they worked. Nowadays I'm building a code 75 layout, terminus to eventual fiddle yard (the latter not yet built); The terminus area works though, and I still have the odd Triang wheeled loco running ok on it. B2B all adjusted as before, and no catching on sleepers. What have I done that is different to others?

[Captain Slough]

Dunno because I thought any Blue Pullman should run well on Code 100 as nearly anything post-1959 and Triang does. I've got examples of all 3 versions of the Triang/Hornby Blue Pullman and none of them were incompatible with code 100 Streamline points

 

Although given that the R156 SR EMU and R157 Met-Cam DMU use the same wheelset types but were introduced 1957 - so early ones dont run code 100 - , its always possible someones swapped wheelsets between an EMU or DMU and a Blue Pullman to get one of those running

Edited February 19, 2023 by Captain Slough

[Halvarras]

This is beginning to look like a wheel back-to-back issue with the OP's particular motor bogie then......

[DCMarvel]

Look on Youtube for Johns Trains. He makes them and are available for around £26 for a bogies worth.

https://www.youtube.com/@chambs123

Edited February 19, 2023 by DCMarvel

[exet1095]

20 minutes ago, Captain Slough said:

Dunno because I thought any Blue Pullman should run well on Code 100 as nearly anything post-1959 and Triang does. I've got examples of all 3 versions of the Triang/Hornby Blue Pullman and none of them were incompatible with code 100 Streamline points

 

Although given that the R156 SR EMU and R157 Met-Cam DMU use the same wheelset types but were introduced 1957 - so early ones dont run code 100 - , its always possible someones swapped wheelsets between an EMU or DMU and a Blue Pullman to get one of those running

Almost untouched, in its original box (with Super-4 track). The flanges are massive - much bigger than the AL1 or Hymek. The B2Bs are the same on all three.

[Michael Hodgson]

It was a problem of flange depth rather than back to back.

[RobinofLoxley]

If the back to backs were set a bit narrow there might be less contact with the chairs??

[Trainshed Terry]

I have used Ultrascale wheel sets for a conversion of a traing blue pullman many yearrs ago. There is a long lead time in getting wheels from them as they only do small runs of wheel\sets.

 

Terry.

[exet1095]

2 minutes ago, Trainshed Terry said:

I have used Ultrascale wheel sets for a conversion of a traing blue pullman many yearrs ago. There is a long lead time in getting wheels from them as they only do small runs of wheel\sets.

 

Terry.

Thanks - trouble is, the cost is more than what I paid for the whole BP set… And delivery is in months.

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, exet1095 said:

Thank you, but as the motor bogie runs beautifully, I’d like to keep using it. The issue is the size of the flanges. I have an AL1 which I managed to get going today; it has a very similar bogie, but with different sideframes. The wheels are also knurled, but have ever so slightly smaller flanges, and so it (and its contemporary Hymek) run without issue. Actually, my wife assumed the AL1 was sound-fitted as the wheels do make a roaring not dissimilar to that she used to hear at the Liverpool Street buffer stops in the 1990s!

 

1 hour ago, stewartingram said:

I've said this before, but when using code 100 I managed ok with Triang wheels of all types. I adjusted the b2b with care, until they worked. Nowadays I'm building a code 75 layout, terminus to eventual fiddle yard (the latter not yet built); The terminus area works though, and I still have the odd Triang wheeled loco running ok on it. B2B all adjusted as before, and no catching on sleepers. What have I done that is different to others?

 

1 hour ago, Captain Slough said:

Dunno because I thought any Blue Pullman should run well on Code 100 as nearly anything post-1959 and Triang does. I've got examples of all 3 versions of the Triang/Hornby Blue Pullman and none of them were incompatible with code 100 Streamline points

 

Although given that the R156 SR EMU and R157 Met-Cam DMU use the same wheelset types but were introduced 1957 - so early ones don't run code 100 - , its always possible someone's swapped wheelsets between an EMU or DMU and a Blue Pullman to get one of those running

 

This topic comes up again and again, once again for those that are unaware, there were three iterations of both the large diameter geared motor bogie driving wheels/axle (part X.116 as used on the AL1, Transcontinental Diesels, Dock Shunter etc) and the small diameter version (part X.117, EMU, DMU, Blue Pullman). So it is not the model itself that determines what track it will run on, it is which version of the wheelsets it is fitted with that decides this.
The earliest versions with knurled wheels are pre-1963 - these will not run on code 100 track. 1963-1970 production retains knurled wheels but has finer flange depth and will run on code 100 track although can struggle with modern Peco frog clearances. Post-1970 both wheelsets were updated with smooth treads and will run on code 100 track. Unsurprisingly as the wheelsets can be simply swapped out with a screwdriver, the smooth tyre wheelsets have been hoarded and a lot of secondhand models seem to have ended up with the pre-1963 wheelsets where these have been swapped out for the finer scale ones. 

[Trainshed Terry]

6 minutes ago, exet1095 said:

Thanks - trouble is, the cost is more than what I paid for the whole BP set… And delivery is in months.

 

I have just had a look on the web site for Ultrascale wheel, 8 months from the day they recive the order. (Yikes!!!)

 

Terry.

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, RobinofLoxley said:

If the back to backs were set a bit narrow there might be less contact with the chairs??

 

But the flanges will hit the check rails.

[dasatcopthorne]

I've converted some using Sharman diesel wheels but I'm not sure if they are still available.

 

Dave.

[stewartingram]

22 hours ago, andyman7 said:

 

 

 

This topic comes up again and again, once again for those that are unaware, there were three iterations of both the large diameter geared motor bogie driving wheels/axle (part X.116 as used on the AL1, Transcontinental Diesels, Dock Shunter etc) and the small diameter version (part X.117, EMU, DMU, Blue Pullman). So it is not the model itself that determines what track it will run on, it is which version of the wheelsets it is fitted with that decides this.
The earliest versions with knurled wheels are pre-1963 - these will not run on code 100 track. 1963-1970 production retains knurled wheels but has finer flange depth and will run on code 100 track although can struggle with modern Peco frog clearances. Post-1970 both wheelsets were updated with smooth treads and will run on code 100 track. Unsurprisingly as the wheelsets can be simply swapped out with a screwdriver, the smooth tyre wheelsets have been hoarded and a lot of secondhand models seem to have ended up with the pre-1963 wheelsets where these have been swapped out for the finer scale ones. 

I'm well aware of all theses variations. I used to be the repair guy for a number of shops in the local area (including 2 Triang agents), and I had quite a large turnover of repairs each week for a number of years. I had a yard length of track for initial testing (Peco 100), but final test was always done on my layout (Peco 100, also with some GF points). ALL of them left me in a state where there was no problem on my track.

Edited February 20, 2023 by stewartingram