Triang brake van

[The Johnster]

I guess most of us of my generation have had one of these at some time or another, and I’ve just come into possession of a somewhat battered example with the wrong roof.  Replaced the roof, cut a badly glue-gunged balcony off, and filthied it up with a card roof as a cabin for my colliery enginemen. 
 

 

Here it is in it’s new role; not a bad bit of impromptu modelling, I submit!   More out of general interest, because I don’t really need the information for anything, is there a prototype that this thing is based on, and if there was, what was it?  Triang gave it an M prefix running number, but it doesn’t look like a Midland or LNW/L&Y van.  Furness?  Knotty?  North London?  

Edited February 23, 2023 by The Johnster

[cypherman]

Hi Johnster,

I believe that in later life the same brake van was released in grey as a NE van.

[Paul H Vigor]

33 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I guess most of us of my generation have had one of these at some time or another, and I’ve just come into possession of a somewhat battered example with the wrong roof.  Replaced the roof, cut a badly glue-gunged balcony off, and filthied it up with a card roof as a cabin for my colliery enginemen. 
 

 

Here it is in it’s new role; not a bad bit of impromptu modelling, I submit!   More out of general interest, because I don’t really need the information for anything, is there a prototype that this thing is based on, and if there was, what was it?  Triang gave it an M prefix running number, but it doesn’t look like a Midland or LNW/L&Y van.  Furness?  Knotty?  North London?  

A proper bothy!

[Paul H Vigor]

5 minutes ago, cypherman said:

Hi Johnster,

I believe that in later life the same brake van was released in grey as a NE van.

There's a difference in the ducket design?

[cypherman]

OOPS,

Sorry wrong picture. I meant to post this picture. Same model as The Johnsters and NE as I mentioned.

[Darryl Tooley]

42 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 Furness?  Knotty?  North London?

Generally thought  to be based on the North Eastern Railway's dia V4 brake vans.

 

D

[The Johnster]

North Eastern, then; I guess that make sense as one can see how the style influenced the later LNER 16ton and 20ton vans, and hence the BR standard 20ton, my usualy office in the 70s.  Triang's M prefixed running number, worn off my van but the M was readable (until I painted over it) misled me. 

 

Backstory is that nobody knows how this van arrived in South Wales from the other end of the country, but a local farmer aquired the body during the war.  One end was badly rotten, and he simply sawed it off, and was trying to sell it when one of Dimbath Deep Navigation's drivers got into a conversation in a pub with him.  As there were no facilities whatsoever for drivers at the engine shed end of the sidings, this driver approached the Colliery Manager, who is stated on the nameboards to be a Mr J Richards, tel. 1270, for a sub from the petty cash to buy the remains of the van off the farmer for £10.  Mr Richards agreed on condition that the men arranged their own transport, and a bit of negotiation and bribery with beer with one of the pit's lorry drivers got the cabin delivered.  The stove pipe was replaced as a new roof was needed, and the replacement comes out of the side rather than through the roof.  Job done!

 

3 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

There's a difference in the ducket design?

 

And the end stanchions and the shape of  the balcony opening.  The Triang model is a bit odd in that it uses the roof from (I think) the Hull & Barnsley insulated meat van, with four ventilators positioned over the verandas where they serve no purpose, and no stove pipe.  That was obvious nonsense and had to go!

 

Cypherman's first picture is of an LNER 16ton van, which ISTR was based on an NER design, and is a rather better tooling; better buffers, proper roof with a stove pipe and ventilators over the cabin, and gaps rather than ridges between the planks.  'My' van had what I think is a cast steel 'Modelmaster' chassis with open ended axleboxes and plastic 'half axle/wheels'.  Of course it sat about 2mm too high, as do all Triang and Triang Hornby models.

 

3 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

A proper bothy!

 

Thanks; exactly the effect I was going for!

Edited February 24, 2023 by The Johnster

[Les Bird]

No doubt at some time in the future a local preservation group will want to buy it with a view to full restoration,

[The Johnster]

It's 1948-58 at Cwmdimbath, and at least another decade before the preservaion movement gets under way properly, and of course it will be in use by the NCB locomen until the pit closes, probably around that time, due to geological difficulties, increasing costs, and underground connection to pits in the adjoining Valleys.  Assuming that wet and dry rot are kept at bay by the protective layer of filth on the outside and tobacco stains on the inside, it would be a prime candidate for preservation, but survival in preservable condition is sadly unlikely, as years of boiling water on the stove for teamaking and the resulting condensation will have taken their toll.  By 1968 it will most likely be falling apart: what do you expect for a tenner?

 

 

[Il Grifone]

So that's what it is! I always wondered!

The Tri-ang brake van predates the H&BR van by almost twenty years and uses the same roof as the ex-Trackmaster goods van (based on an L&Y prototype I think) hence the ventilators, though the original had a sliding roof door. (These could well have been removed over the years of course.) Like the brake van being given a Midland prefix, these were initiallyavailable in GWR and LNER livery rather than LMS. Later on, the colour depended on whatever they could get cheap/had surplus stocks of!

 

I understand the scrap price for rolling stock bodies was 25/- per foot so they got a bargain.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Il Grifone

[The Johnster]

It came as part of a hob lot of stuff given to me by Colin up the pub’s missis who was clearing out her attic and Colin thought I’d like it because he knows I’m into model trains; it would have been rude to refuse.  Most of it is landfill but I’ve saved some of it, including a HD 3-rail 80054 as a shelf queen and an early Triang (same era as the brake van) insulated meat van which has been given a 9’ Baccy chassis; I think this is the L&Y model, n’est ce pas?  Also a roofless Triang Hornby era insulated meat van in a green ‘Prime Pork’ livery with a stencilled pig on the side; this has E-prefixed running numbers which is presumably the Hull & Barnsley, and I’d got my vans muxed ip, and a generic 9’ wheelbase 5-planker in a ‘Bestwood Iron Works’ PO livery.  I’ve binned their chassis but the bodies will probably join the L&Y van in being given new chassis and, eventually, early BR or late big 4 liveries. 

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by The Johnster

[hmrspaul]

I always thought the original very short brake van was a complete illusion - not really much like the NER vans. But then we found https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/rnadbedenham/e30c8bc84  & https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/rnadbedenham/e25bb4f08 which have some similarities. I've no idea what the origin of the Bedenham vans may have been. 

 

Paul

[BernardTPM]

There's a drawing of a 10' w.b. 17' long 10T NER brake van in Tatlow. That's only 4mm longer than ther Tri-ang van. It has the same wooden duckets and angled wooden end bracing too. For mid 1950s I guess that was 'close enough'.

[Il Grifone]

 

19 hours ago, The Johnster said:

omissis

including a HD 3-rail 80054 as a shelf queen and an early Triang (same era as the brake van) insulated meat van which has been given a 9’ Baccy chassis; I think this is the L&Y model, n’est ce pas?  Also a roofless Triang Hornby era insulated meat van in a green ‘Prime Pork’ livery with a stencilled pig on the side; this has E-prefixed running numbers which is presumably the Hull & Barnsley, and I’d got my vans muxed ip, and a generic 9’ wheelbase 5-planker in a ‘Bestwood Iron Works’ PO livery.  I’ve binned their chassis but the bodies will probably join the L&Y van in being given new chassis and, eventually, early BR or late big 4 liveries. 

 

 

 

Certainement! Oui!

 

We can blame Pyramid Toys/Trackmaster for the odd length. Their wagon underframe is a scale 16' over headstocks and 9' 6" wheelbase (otherwise a passable model of a standard wooden underframe* especially for the late forties. Tri-ang bought it in and gradually b****red it up over the years.

* The crown plates were rather an anachronism by the forties though, 9' 6" is also a strange choice - the only wagon I can think of so equipped is a loco coal wagon from one of the GWR's Welsh constituents.

A HD 80054 deserves to be converted to 2 rail and run on the layout, not relegated to "Shelf queen!" (Wrenn still have the axle insulators and I think the later chimney ( Dublo's 60s rethink of their early awful effort!) We can ignore that she is in full reverse gear. M. Walschaerts' design is going to be wrong most of the time however you set it. Most makes chicken out and set it in mid-gear - an excuse for their failure to operate?

I have a 'Prime Pork' somewhere and an early example (bought new) in NER (? - lettered NE in black anyway) livery! I suspect the prototypes disappeared fairly soon after becoming LNER property (always assuming that the NER hadn't already done so).

[The Johnster]

I’d considered converting the 4MT to 2-rail and running it but decided against it, mainly because there is no excuse to have one on an ex-GW South Wales branch, and I have too many half-finished loco projects already.  That said, 80133 (having been xfer from Swansea Paxton St to Neath when Paxton St closed) worked a Porthcawl excursion from Blaengwyfi via the Llynfi Valley line and Tondu in 1963, but that’s 5 years after my period cut-off. 
 

It’s a nice engine in good external nick, and probably a runner (those HD mechs were pretty bombproof), and I don’t consider shelf queen pride of place display in the living room to be a relegation, more an honourable retirement.  Using it on the layout would mean a repaint, new scale size transfers, and I’d never be happy with the lack of underframe detail; the thing has plenty of retro charm and I’ll leave it alone!  Maybe a length of HD 3-rail for it to sit on.  

 

 

[Il Grifone]

She'd look better on HD 2 rail track*. One of mine is sitting on the coffee table (on some sort of H0 rubbish that just happened to be to hand) in front of me as I write. This poor girl has had a hard life (before she came my way I hasten to add) and needs a new armature (as in hasn't got one) - I'll have to see what the bits box can supply.

*3 rail would be appropriate, but for display it looks awful. I was about 5 and the proud owner of new Dublo (6231) when I first realised that it looked nothing like the real thing.

[The Johnster]

The advantage of this idea being that I have plenty of odd lengths of 2-rail of various sorts hanging about, but 3-rail 'goes with' the loco and makes the point that this is HD, not Wrenn; it's the 'retro' thing!  And it'll prevent me being tempted to convert it and use it on the layout...

[Il Grifone]

Glad to report that the bits box(es) came up trumps and supplied my 4MT with a magnet (The correct long version) an armature, (o/c winding needed repair (first I had to repair the (new) soldering iron - twisted wires insulated with tape are a recipe for failure especially at 230V.- Soldered and reinsulated but i will have to do the job properly!). Now all I have to procure is the armature top bearing.

Unfortunately looking for bits, I also found a bare N2 block crying out for attention too. One of the axle holes is rather oval and requires bushing.

 

Sorry I have rather strayed away from NER V4 brake vans. Yes I do have some.... I also have a Hornby 0 gauge tinplate version in dark brown GNR livery. It will be celebrating its hundreth birthday about now. It's not unlike the V4 van, being rather short, with verandas each end, but lacks the duckets.

One of these, but mine has rather better and more delicate axleguards,

https://auctions.specialauctionservices.

[cypherman]

On 27/02/2023 at 17:42, The Johnster said:

The advantage of this idea being that I have plenty of odd lengths of 2-rail of various sorts hanging about, but 3-rail 'goes with' the loco and makes the point that this is HD, not Wrenn; it's the 'retro' thing!  And it'll prevent me being tempted to convert it and use it on the layout...

Hi Johnster,

I know it is not for the purists to convert these engines, But for me they look too good to be just sat there. This is one of mine converted to 2 rail. it runs a treat.

[The Johnster]

If I could justify a 4MT at Cwmdimbath I'd probably convert and re-wheel it, but in all conscience I can't.  My Barry 3MT is pushing things a bit as it is!  But an idea occurred earlier today strangely enough; I might be able to enhance it's display value by mounting it with the driving wheels very slightly clear of the track and wiring it up to run, slowly and quietly!  I have always been of the view that Hornby Dublo Walchaert's valve gear in motion is a desirable thing of very great aesthetic beauty in it's own right...

[Il Grifone]

Mine is waiting for her new bearings from Wrenn. I will probably replace the bottom bearing as well, then she will have new motor bearings and pass on the old one to the N2 chassis. I have a stock of the small top bearings but they are no use for the 4MT block. The top bearing supposedly did not require oiling, but I assume even Meccano Ltd. didn't expect them to still be around almost 70 years on. (My first one is 69 this year!)

 

Make sure she runs in reverse! The 4MT must be the only model with Walschaerts gear set in full reverse. They are usually set in mid-gear. With lesser makes this is understandable!

 

Waffle alert!

On larger things, sorting through my small (in number. not size!)  Hornby O gauge collection, i selected my rather sad (but perfectly functional!) M1 0-4-0 with a view to restoration. She had a rather thick layer of green paint when I acquired her and I thought she needed a little care and attention. I have always thought that these things looked a bit on the puny side. but skimming through the book on Hornby I got from the library*, I saw the French version: Bright red with smoke deflectors. Apart from having the coupling/connecting rod fitted upside down, otherwise it is much the same as the British version, but the blinkers make all the difference. So I've made some for mine (having smoothed down the green and replaced the missing handrails). Unfortunately she lacks a tender and has to make do with a Brimtoy one. This is also bright red, but in far too good a condition to repaint. Now I either have to source the proper tender or I could repaint the engine red (they came in red or green anyway) to match and pass her off as Hogwarts Express (or something!).

 

Even more waffle alert!

* Chelmsford! We used to be able to return books to any library, but no longer. So I will have to go back there. Oh well another day out ! At least the bus is free Or rather the three buses are free. There used to be a through service Grays to Chelmsford, but now we have to change at Basildon (Great "New Town" of the immediate post-war period; now being knocked down and rebuilt!

Likewise across the river. I was intending to go a toyfair in Orpington, but the Bluewater (bus from Grays) to Orpington bus now only runs fom Dartford and not at all on Sunday, It seems there is one Bluewater to Sidcup and another then to Orpington, so hoping for the best! At least a day out again!

Edited March 4, 2023 by Il Grifone

[The Johnster]

Reverse it shall be, Il Grifone!

[cypherman]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Reverse it shall be, Il Grifone!

As it says in the song Star trekking "Always going forwards, Sometimes in reverse"....😇