Remodelling GWR BLT layout as industrial light railway?

[JamFjord]

I'm hoping for a little help and advice, perhaps just ideas and suggestions. As I've been extremely fortunate to win/inherit/become custodian of Chris Ford's GWR branch line layout 'The Art of Compromise' via BRM's Great Model Railway Giveaway competition, I'm now planning how to bring about the ideas I proposed in my submission. A key one of those is to change the setting from the small, quiet archetypal GWR village station and goods yard of the original design, to something with a bit of light industrial interest.

 

The layout itself has quite a background (more details here) so I will be paying tribute to that and attempting to preserve as much as possible, but it does need some work to bring it up to date, I think, and make it suitable for exhibiting. The track configuration, for one thing, is absolutely not going to change.

 

The setting will remain a ficticious location in Wales, but slightly more gritty and perhaps a little shabbier than the current bucolic and pastoral theme (which, don't get me wrong, is lovely work by Chris, skillfully refurbished by Phil and Howard). Geographically, we're talking Powys, Mid Wales along the border with Shropshire or Herefordshire.

I do have some ideas of the kind of light industry I'd like to portray (probably forestry or something similar) but I thought I'd post this here in case anyone has suggestions or ideas that would be fun to incorporate, or perhaps glaring prototypical errors to avoid. 

[Nearholmer]

I’m a bit confused: are you turning this into “an industrial railway”?

 

If you are, step one would almost certainly be to dispense with any signals, any visible signs of interlocking, and the signal box, and install ground-level point levers at each point.

 

Why? Because industrial railways that don’t carry passengers aren’t governed by the legislation that requires all those safety precautions, and the vast majority weren’t provided with them. A few were, but only a few.

 

 

[JamFjord]

Thanks @Nearholmer, that's good intel, much appreciated. I was thinking about replacing the signal box with a ground frame. Perhaps even that is overkill...

 

The back story I'm considering is that the line was closed to passengers, but continued to serve the industrial siding(s), although it's now a very small heritage railway, with the industry traffic supplementing income (perhaps similar to the Middleton or Ribble Steam Railways).

 

In that scenario, would they have been likely to removed signals etc?

 

Having recently visited the Carnforth depot, there's a lot of infrastructure that just sits there deteriorating - apparently it's not worth removing it (or doing so is prohibited where they are listed/protected). However, I'm guessing some has been removed where it made financial sense.

Edited February 27, 2023 by JamFjord

[Nearholmer]

There are multiple ways in which a mixed industrial/heritage railway can carry passengers safely, not all requiring signals.

 

In the end, it boils down to personal choice: do you want signals?

 

If you do, retain what is there, and assume that the heritage railway kept, or re-instated, the installation.

 

If you don’t, take them away, and with the help of others more expert I’m sure we can devise a safe operating protocol without them, almost certainly involving a ground-frame to operate the points at the entry to the scene, which in reality would have to be fitted with a facing point lock (if passenger trains cross the other points, the same will apply there, but a stop board keeping them short of those points would be simpler).

[steve1]

As someone who was once involved with converting a OO GWR BLT into a HO Chicago-based freight yard, I can assure you anything is possible if you’re prepared to put in the effort.

 

steve

[Din]

Have you heard the tale of the Burry Port and Gwendraeth Valley Railway?

 

It's not a story the Swindonians would tell you....

 

Its one of Colonel Stephens lines that he actually helped engineer and sounds a little along the lines of what you're looking for albeit on a larger scale. It was built ruthlessly to budget on the line of an old Canal formation and was in the typical Stephens Style, and would boast its own passenger service and very light touch in everything not the trackwork. 

 

Link to a helpful gallery from the Stephens Society:

 

https://colonelstephenssociety.co.uk/the colonels railways/burry port %26 gwendraeth valley light railway/burry port %26 gwendraeth valley light railway photo gallery-2.html

 

I beleive towards the end, all of the Signalling was removed and it was largely treated akin to an incredibly long siding.

 

Depending on how you would want to do it, I'd definitely replace it with a ground frame (unmanned, natch) but maybe consider retaining the signal.

 

I'd probably go and have a look at Scale Model Scenery's own bunches of buildings that could be adapted to something "different". I quite like the look of the Polsue Stables/stores. Perhaps when the railway was built on the cheap they hired people more used to building farm buildings than railway ones? 

[Hando]

3 hours ago, JamFjord said:

I'm hoping for a little help and advice, perhaps just ideas and suggestions. As I've been extremely fortunate to win/inherit/become custodian of Chris Ford's GWR branch line layout 'The Art of Compromise' via BRM's Great Model Railway Giveaway competition, I'm now planning how to bring about the ideas I proposed in my submission. A key one of those is to change the setting from the small, quiet archetypal GWR village station and goods yard of the original design, to something with a bit of light industrial interest.

 

The layout itself has quite a background (more details here) so I will be paying tribute to that and attempting to preserve as much as possible, but it does need some work to bring it up to date, I think, and make it suitable for exhibiting. The track configuration, for one thing, is absolutely not going to change.

 

The setting will remain a ficticious location in Wales, but slightly more gritty and perhaps a little shabbier than the current bucolic and pastoral theme (which, don't get me wrong, is lovely work by Chris, skillfully refurbished by Phil and Howard). Geographically, we're talking Powys, Mid Wales along the border with Shropshire or Herefordshire.

I do have some ideas of the kind of light industry I'd like to portray (probably forestry or something similar) but I thought I'd post this here in case anyone has suggestions or ideas that would be fun to incorporate, or perhaps glaring prototypical errors to avoid. 

There's plenty of old light railways and minor railways in the Mid Wales / Marches area that are worth having a look at for inspiration:

• The Potteries, Shrewsbury and North Wales Railway (closed in 1880, but later reopened as the Shropshire and Montgomeryshire Railway in 1911).
• The Tanat Valley Light Railway (operated by Cambrian Railways)
• The Bishop's Castle Railway
• The Golden Valley Railway (independent until 1899 before being bought by the GWR)
• The Van Railway (operated by Cambrian Railways after 1896)
• The Mawddwy Railway (independent until it closed in 1908 before being reopened by the Cambrian Railways in 1911)

Each of these lines (except for the Golden Valley Railway and Bishops Castle Railway) had their niche in terms of the minerals they carried.

• The PSNWR/S&MR served the Granite quarries at Criggion, and the Limestone quarries at Nantmawr with two branch lines.
• The TVLR served the slate quarries at Llangynog.
• The Van Railway served the lead mines at Y Fan.
• The Mawddwy Railway served various slate quarries along its route, the most significant being the quarries to the west of Aberangell, which were served by the narrow gauge Hendre-ddu Tramway, which was a feeder line for the Mawddwy Railway.

Some minor railways of interest are:

• The New Radnor Branch (there were some significant limestone and gritstone quarries at Dolyhir)
• The Minsterley Branch (the Snailbeach District Railways served the lead mines on the western side of Stiperstones and terminated at sidings at Pontesbury)
• The Kerry Branch (the narrow gauge Kerry Tramway terminated at the station and served the timber trade in the woodlands to the south of the station)

[Nearholmer]

Having a good, heavy and bulky mineral to ship out would make a good basis for the line surviving under private ownership, for a heritage group to move in later (and either reinstate the signalling or not).

 

It feels to me as if, under that scenario, the quarry company would now own the line, having its own loco(s), and that the heritage bods would be “tenants”, taking over operation at the weekends. To me, the weirdest operation is Scunthorpe steelworks, where the heritage society trains run round on presumably locked-off bits of the industrial track. When I rode on it, I confess that I was so busy being overawed by the furnaces that I didn’t take note of the operational safety arrangements!

[JamFjord]

Thanks everyone, I appreciate all the help and ideas. 

 

@Nearholmer  really good points, I had imagined the line would be a joint venture between the heritage volunteers and the industrial operation. I was led by the example at Preston Docks, where I believe the Ribble Steam Railway created Ribble Rail Ltd to provide a service shunting the bitumen tankers from the exchange sidings where Colas drop them off, over the bridge to the refinery. However, the heritage operation being tenants would make sense. In truth I'm not even sure who actually owns the track and infrastructure that Ribble Rail uses, could even be Preston council, I think they owned the docks when it was a proper port.

Regarding the signalling, I need to have a think about that - I'd been working under the assumption that I needed to keep it all in place (or redo it), with it being a former British Railways line. But as you point out, that's a choice. And something a bit more "light railway" could be fun.

Oh, and I've been wanting to visit the Appleby Frodingham Railway for ages, based on the map alone in looks slightly bonkers and well worth a visit. Your description just bumped it up my list.

 

@steve1  - cheers, very inspiring - I took on the project knowing it would be a significant amount of work, so I'm fully prepared to put in the effort.

 

@Din cheers, I've actually had Oakwood's 'Burry Port & Gwendreath Valley Railway' book in my shopping list for a bit, I should probably track down a copy, sounds like I could get some very appropriate inspiration from that example. Thank you!

 

@Hando some excellent ideas there - thank you! I've already started investigating Tanat, Golden Valley and Mawddwy/Van/Kerry, thanks to some book suggestions from @James Hilton. Great to get a second recommendation of those lines, I think I need to dive deep on them now the books have arrived (today). Those other lines you suggested all sound promising too - more rabbit holes to dive into. 

 

5 hours ago, Hando said:

• The Kerry Branch (the narrow gauge Kerry Tramway terminated at the station and served the timber trade in the woodlands to the south of the station)

Kerry is of more than minor interest to me - the timber industry in the area and the connection with the tramway piqued my interest, but I definitely don't have space to model an operation that size in the space I have available (one foot by six). I am drawn to it, though, and I think there could be something from the Kerry line I could bring to this layout.

 

5 hours ago, Hando said:

• The Van Railway served the lead mines at Y Fan

That caught my attention - the station on the layout was originally named 'Y Fan' by Chris Ford. I realise it means 'The Place', but still...

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by JamFjord

[Nick C]

Another one to look at for inspiration would be the Dartmoor railway, at Okehampton - the line closed to passengers in 1972, but stayed open for freight to Meldon Quarry. Reopened in 1997 as a heritage railway in between the ballast trains, but then closed again when the company owning it went bust - and has since been reopened again, but now returned to the national network.

 

[2mmMark]

What you could do is model it as the exchange/reversing point for a BR/Industrial line.  That way you could have both BR & industrial locos side by side.

If you want some inspiration about creating a rundown look,  check out the thread on Shwt.

Mark

Edited March 3, 2023 by 2mmMark

[JamFjord]

Thanks both, excellent suggestions!

@Nick C - this is really interesting as a prototype, I know the line's twists and turns quite well as there's a cab ride video Exeter to Okehampton that often put on in the background while I'm working. However, I didn't realise I has the history it does, so I'll be looking into that one. I'm pretty sure I can take some ideas from there and incorporate them.

 

@2mmMark - I love this suggestion! I had been toying with the idea of modelling the 'fiddle yard' as an exchange siding (not exactly sure how that's going to work yet... or if) with a BR 08 shunting wagons to and from the industrial siding (maybe?). However, your suggestion is a slant I hadn't thought of - thanks for that. Oh, and I'll definitely be reading through the Shwt thread, it's loaded and ready to go on after I finish writing this.

EDIT: err, yeah - wow! Shwt is going to be a big source of inspiration, I reckon. Thanks again, Mark.

 

 

Cheers, thanks again everyone - I appreciate all the ideas, suggestions and tips 👍

Edited March 3, 2023 by JamFjord

[simonmcp]

Shwt will be at the RMweb SWAG show in Taunton soon, along with other inspirational layouts.

[JamFjord]

Thanks @simonmcp - sorry I missed this at the time but in all honesty Taunton would've had to be a "long-weekend" type of commitment for me where I'm currently living. I'll keep my eye out for Shwt appearing at other shows though (one can hope).

[Hesperus]

Have you considered a military railway?

 

At the start of WW2 the army took over the SMR from Col Stephens and the Navy took over the Cleobury Mortimer and Ditton Priors light Railway from the GWR.

 

If the Bishops Castle had survived a couple more years it would probably have been taken over too.

 

They were there to serve ammunition stores in remote countryside but effectively acted as training sites like the Longmore Military Railway too.