LNER coal drops.

[doilum]

This question is based on Selby but the answer may lie.elsewhere.

Wagons are pushed across the cells, 12 in the case of Selby, what happens when the first wagon gets to the end? 

Each cell is approximately 10' wide so in order to have the bottom doors line up over the centre of the cell the front axle must be beyond the cell wall . Was there a short length of solid embankment or did they just reserve the first cell for storing equipment?

The cells are at.least seven or eight feet to tail level. What buffer arrangements were made to stop wagons rolling off?

As far as I can assertain Selby didn't have a covered end cell.

 

[iands]

With regard to Selby, there wasn't a short length of embankment or 'overrun'. Also not sure if there was a buffer stop, could have just been a 'scotch block' type of arrangement on top of the rails to prevent wagons disappearing over the end.

 

A drawing and some photos that hopefully support my above observations.

 

The drawing is a section of a much larger drawing of Selby and clearly shows the coal drops. However, the drawing indicates only 9 cells and not 12, but suggests there was no 'overrun'.

 

This 1932 photo (zoomed into the coal drops) shows a covered end, so unfortunately doesn't help much in this instance.

 

The second photo is from 1948 (again, zoomed in on the coal drops). The covered end has now gone and shows the 12 cells in full. Note that the last two (11 & 12 counting from right to left) appear to be lighter in colour. This could because this is where the covered end was, so wasn't exposed to as much 'muck' as the others due to the covered end, or it could suggest that coal wasn't actually dropped in these two cells, although the photo clearly shows a wagon over cell 11.

 

Another photo from 1952, from the opposite side (again, zoomed in on the coal drops). By now one of the roads has been 'lifted'. It is unclear if buffers were, or had been, used, hence my comment above about a 'scotch block' type arrangement.

 

Just for completeness, another drawing from just a few miles down the road at Riccall. This also shows the coal drops and suggests there was no 'overrun' here either. So it would suggest that 'overruns' weren't a design consideration.

 

Of course these two examples were built by the NER, and inherited by the LNER. If the LNER constructed any 'new' coal drops after 1923 anywhere, they may well have designed the coal drops differently and included buffers and/or a short 'overrun'.

 

Although the above examples don't answer your queries conclusively, I hope they are in some way helpful.

 

[Bernard Lamb]

A bit far south for me.

I do know the arrangement at Alston.

There the original cells were extended by about half a  wagon length and a section of embankement added and some very large buffer beams added that went down to ground level. As you say to enable the end cell to be used efficiently. Published drawings in this case do not agree in all details with photographs. I can imagine that the lack of making of exact drawings to cope with changes was not unique to Alston.

A little voice is trying to tell me that the covered cells were used for lime rather than coal.

Bernard

 

[Michael Hodgson]

13 hours ago, doilum said:

This question is based on Selby but the answer may lie.elsewhere.

Wagons are pushed across the cells, 12 in the case of Selby, what happens when the first wagon gets to the end? 

Each cell is approximately 10' wide so in order to have the bottom doors line up over the centre of the cell the front axle must be beyond the cell wall . Was there a short length of solid embankment or did they just reserve the first cell for storing equipment?

The cells are at.least seven or eight feet to tail level. What buffer arrangements were made to stop wagons rolling off?

As far as I can assertain Selby didn't have a covered end cell.

 

Perhaps they used an end door wagon rather than bottom doors for this ?

[Bernard Lamb]

12 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Perhaps they used an end door wagon rather than bottom doors for this ?

WHAT!!!

This is the NER.

Hoppers rule.

No place for this foreign nonsense.😀

Bernard

[Worsdell forever]

If they couldn't get the hopper fully over the cell they would have had a couple of options.

 

Not open the doors at that end and send someone in with a shovel.

Normally it was the stationmaster who sold the coal so just let it fall into the next cell.

 

This is of course assuming that the hoppers are 20t capacity. There shouldn't be such a problem if they're 12/13t wagons or perhaps later with steel hoppers.

[Compound2632]

I suppose most of the NER coal drops were built at a pitch that matched the length of the mineral wagons of the day - 1860s/70s? So bigger isn't always better, or at least, isn't always more convenient. 

[doilum]

Many thanks for all your comments. Although we are modelling Selby pre war , space compression dictates that we adopt the single track approach. I am taken with the idea of simply adding an extra couple of feet to the end cell. It still would not be enough for the NE 20 tonners but that would be ok.

My very rough maths calculates that each cell held around 25 tons. On some photos there appears to be a building close to the end of the drops. Any ideas?

[Flying Pig]

20 minutes ago, doilum said:

I am taken with the idea of simply adding an extra couple of feet to the end cell. It still would not be enough for the NE 20 tonners but that would be ok.

 

I don't see why you would want to do this if it doesn't represent the prototype.  Whatever workaround they used is part of the scene you're modelling.

[iands]

37 minutes ago, doilum said:

On some photos there appears to be a building close to the end of the drops. Any ideas?

Is this question specifically for Selby? Can't see any buildings in the photos (or on any drawings) I have, other than the 'covered end' shown in the 1932 photo. I suppose this could have housed a small office for the 'Coal Agent', but once it was demolished the Agents office would have been relocated probably on to the station. Can't say for other locations as I haven't looked.

[The Stationmaster]

Description for Riccall is correct although I have to admit it is a very long time since I last saw coal wagons sitting above the coal cells there.

[iands]

Just had a quick scan through the NERA site at the NER Traffic Committee minutes (as you do), and for 4th April 1895 (Min. No. 18767) the following entry is made "Selby: Wooden shelter for pony & cart". No details are provided on the actual location, so could be in the main goods yard/warehouse area, or could conceivably be adjacent/near to the coal drops. So if any buildings were to be provided on the layout you are modelling, a small agents office and a separate building to house a pony & cart would not necessarily be too unprototypical in general, if not strictly accurate for Selby.

[doilum]

55 minutes ago, iands said:

Is this question specifically for Selby? Can't see any buildings in the photos (or on any drawings) I have, other than the 'covered end' shown in the 1932 photo. I suppose this could have housed a small office for the 'Coal Agent', but once it was demolished the Agents office would have been relocated probably on to the station. Can't say for other locations as I haven't looked.

Yes this is a model of Selby pre 1939.

[iands]

19 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Description for Riccall is correct although I have to admit it is a very long time since I last saw coal wagons sitting above the coal cells there.

I wonder if the inhabitants of 24 Station Road hear any ghostly rattling's of coal wagons being emptied as their bungalow sits on top of where the 'drops' used to be? 

[doilum]

It is beginning to dawn on me that the end drop was originally covered. This thows up two more questions, was it a fully enclosed brick structure? and when was it removed/ demolished.

The 1952 photo shows the end cells as being open and slightly larger than the preceding ten. Presumably these were the base of the covered cells.

Edited March 1, 2023 by doilum

[doilum]

The covered cells would match very closely the drawing in Ken Hoole's book on NE stations.

Was the roof removed to allow the big hopper wagons to use all the cells presumably after the end of the lime trade.

Edited March 1, 2023 by doilum

[iands]

58 minutes ago, doilum said:

It is beginning to dawn on me that the end drop was originally covered. This thows up two more questions, was it a fully enclosed brick structure? and when was it removed/ demolished.

The 1952 photo shows the end cells as being open and slightly larger than the preceding ten. Presumably these were the base of the covered cells.

It's difficult to tell from the 1932 photo, but there could have been windows the full length of the covered end, on the station side at least. There may well have been windows on the Abbey side as well, to let in light to enable staff to see what they were doing. Not sure if there would have been any windows on the end facing the river. I say windows, I can't be sure if they would have been 'glazed', but certainly it looks like there were framed 'openings'.

 

Obviously the 'covered end' was still in-situ in 1932, but had gone by 1948, as evidenced in the photos I posted earlier. Unfortunately, whilst assisting with some research for the book "Selby's Railways Explored", I didn't come across any details of when the covered end was removed, but as you are modelling in the era pre-1939, I think it would be safe to assume it was still there at the start of WWII - unless, of course, someone can categorically prove otherwise!

 

As to why the covered end was removed, your suggestion of allowing big hopper wagons to access the 'drops' would seem perfectly plausible. It could also be that some point someone included a bigger hopper in a consist of coal wagons and no one realised until too late when it was shunted on to the drops and it caused damage to the covered end, by which time the powers that be maybe decided to remove it anyway - only requiring a one-off cost for removal, as opposed to a repair bill and ongoing 'maintenance costs'. Pure supposition on my part, but possible.

[Bernard Lamb]

Going back to my mention of the drops at Alston being extended to allow a wagon to be over the last cell and the embankement for the stops. Plan from Disused Staions shows what I mean.

Bernard

 

[hmrspaul]

This paired one at Norhtallerton doesn't appear to use the end cell for coal, and the sturdy bufferstop is at the end of the cells 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/coalloading/e3a20d256  https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/coalloading/e137dcd17

 

Paul

[doilum]

16 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

This paired one at Norhtallerton doesn't appear to use the end cell for coal, and the sturdy bufferstop is at the end of the cells 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/coalloading/e3a20d256  https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/coalloading/e137dcd17

 

Paul

Excellent photo. This confirms the validity of my original question.

[doilum]

6 hours ago, iands said:

With regard to Selby, there wasn't a short length of embankment or 'overrun'. Also not sure if there was a buffer stop, could have just been a 'scotch block' type of arrangement on top of the rails to prevent wagons disappearing over the end.

 

A drawing and some photos that hopefully support my above observations.

 

The drawing is a section of a much larger drawing of Selby and clearly shows the coal drops. However, the drawing indicates only 9 cells and not 12, but suggests there was no 'overrun'.

 

This 1932 photo (zoomed into the coal drops) shows a covered end, so unfortunately doesn't help much in this instance.

 

The second photo is from 1948 (again, zoomed in on the coal drops). The covered end has now gone and shows the 12 cells in full. Note that the last two (11 & 12 counting from right to left) appear to be lighter in colour. This could because this is where the covered end was, so wasn't exposed to as much 'muck' as the others due to the covered end, or it could suggest that coal wasn't actually dropped in these two cells, although the photo clearly shows a wagon over cell 11.

 

Another photo from 1952, from the opposite side (again, zoomed in on the coal drops). By now one of the roads has been 'lifted'. It is unclear if buffers were, or had been, used, hence my comment above about a 'scotch block' type arrangement.

 

Just for completeness, another drawing from just a few miles down the road at Riccall. This also shows the coal drops and suggests there was no 'overrun' here either. So it would suggest that 'overruns' weren't a design consideration.

 

Of course these two examples were built by the NER, and inherited by the LNER. If the LNER constructed any 'new' coal drops after 1923 anywhere, they may well have designed the coal drops differently and included buffers and/or a short 'overrun'.

 

Although the above examples don't answer your queries conclusively, I hope they are in some way helpful.

 

 

6 hours ago, iands said:

With regard to Selby, there wasn't a short length of embankment or 'overrun'. Also not sure if there was a buffer stop, could have just been a 'scotch block' type of arrangement on top of the rails to prevent wagons disappearing over the end.

 

A drawing and some photos that hopefully support my above observations.

 

The drawing is a section of a much larger drawing of Selby and clearly shows the coal drops. However, the drawing indicates only 9 cells and not 12, but suggests there was no 'overrun'.

 

This 1932 photo (zoomed into the coal drops) shows a covered end, so unfortunately doesn't help much in this instance.

 

The second photo is from 1948 (again, zoomed in on the coal drops). The covered end has now gone and shows the 12 cells in full. Note that the last two (11 & 12 counting from right to left) appear to be lighter in colour. This could because this is where the covered end was, so wasn't exposed to as much 'muck' as the others due to the covered end, or it could suggest that coal wasn't actually dropped in these two cells, although the photo clearly shows a wagon over cell 11.

 

Another photo from 1952, from the opposite side (again, zoomed in on the coal drops). By now one of the roads has been 'lifted'. It is unclear if buffers were, or had been, used, hence my comment above about a 'scotch block' type arrangement.

 

Just for completeness, another drawing from just a few miles down the road at Riccall. This also shows the coal drops and suggests there was no 'overrun' here either. So it would suggest that 'overruns' weren't a design consideration.

 

Of course these two examples were built by the NER, and inherited by the LNER. If the LNER constructed any 'new' coal drops after 1923 anywhere, they may well have designed the coal drops differently and included buffers and/or a short 'overrun'.

 

Although the above examples don't answer your queries conclusively, I hope they are in some way helpful.

 

Looking carefully at an enlarged photo, it appears to have been taken during the removal of the second track. Part of the outer track is also missing.

[iands]

Looking at the 1952 photo again, and cropping a slightly different area, another building is present that you may wish to include in your layout - even if you "re-position" it to fit it in. It is the one I have outlined in blue on the attached. It is the building associated with the 'weigh machine' as depicted on the NLS map of c1890.

[doilum]

2 minutes ago, iands said:

Looking at the 1952 photo again, and cropping a slightly different area, another building is present that you may wish to include in your layout - even if you "re-position" it to fit it in. It is the one I have outlined in blue on the attached. It is the building associated with the 'weigh machine' as depicted on the NLS map of c1890.

Many thanks this. Even if it doesn't make the.model we can explain where it was.

[Ken.W]

Not that far from Selby there's a similar, but shorter, coal drops with two covered lime cells at the end, that still exists at Goathland NYMR.

 

The lime cells are enclosed apart from the front of the cells and the rail entry, the other end adjoins the station building. There's no windows.

 

There was a suggestion above the roof at Selby was maybe damaged by too high a wagon, I've seen a pic if the Goathland one with a NER 20t wooden hopper inside. Comparing my models, the 21t steel hoppers were the same height. Posts above suggest at Selby they were roofed pre-war but appear un-roofed post, so perhaps the roof was removed by our continental friends, or as not required after chemical fertilisers had taken over.

 

Regarding use of the end cell by coal hoppers where the cells were uncovered, measuring a model 21t steel hopper, it appears the hopper door towards the end may have been able to empty into the end cell. I'm not sure of the door arrangement on the 20t wooden hoppers.

However, particularly on longer drops like Selby, would it have been necessary or convenient to use the end cell? If there's no over-run it would need the wagon shunted right up to the buffer stop, and bear in mind that there was a general prohibition on any loco going onto drops* which meant use of other wagons as reach wagons to get it there.

 

* There could be exemptions in local instructions

Edited March 11, 2023 by Ken.W

[doilum]

Selby was one of the exceptions. To my surprise there was a sign actively permitting the locomotives to enter the coal depot. We have a good photo from 1932 that shows the roofed section and twin tracks. After much consideration and assessment of a full size mock up we have decided to model all twelve cells, include the roof but remove one track as done post war as we haven't room for the extra point.