District Line Q stock

[Andy Vincent]

4 hours ago, 34017Ilfracombe said:

One option might be to uncouple the design and the print processes so that modellers can either print designs on their own machines or have them printed by a professional supplier of their choice.

 

I commented on that situation as the way wargaming seems to be going - you license the design and print at home - but, thinking further, I think there is a difference between the domains in that a wargamers generally print an entity as a single part whilst railway models tend to have multiple components  and represent an historical artifact. Ensuring that those components all align and fit as they should currently still requires a level of control over the process (as well as resins with different properties for specific parts). 

 

Printing coaches remains relatively problematic because of their size. It is easy to get a printer that will print a few wagons at incredible resolution, but there are far fewer options (and currently all expensive options) for something 60+ feet long! I admire the work that Isinglass do with printing the sides end on and am impressed with their results, but that doesnt really fit with the way I break down my designs into components. I suspect that once we get a 'prosumer' grade 25 micron printer that can print a complete 64' coach horizontally then things will change dramatically. We are currently around 52' so getting closer and we may not be that far off!

 

In the meantime, like Stephen, I simply enjoy the research and design and focus on wagons because those are what I can print. Fortunately, there seems to be a good demand for them (via Brassmasters) and more are coming, even though my first love is actually coaches and the Southern multiple units of my schooldays! 

 

Andy

[Mike Miller]

ive finally arrived at something resembling Q stock with underframe gubbins!

[roythebus1]

From what I remember from my stock training on Q stock in 1970, the batteries were actually under the passenger seats, 110 volts for the guards door controls and motorman's control gear. The long box on the top picture is probably the contactors.

[Guest]

On 29/04/2023 at 15:29, Mike Miller said:

ive finally arrived at something resembling Q stock with underframe gubbins!

Thank you Mike, these drawings are a great help!

Stephen

 

[Guest]

At risk of trying further the patience of all you London Underground experts, please can you help this Southern imposter to understand the numbering of Q stock, particularly as it was in the final days of the fleet?

 

Q23.  As I understand it the LPTB numbers were 4140-4204 (west facing, even numbers) and 4141-4173 (east facing, odd numbers).  There also seem to ba cars numbered 4206-4218 (and possibly more), were these turned and renumbered eastbound cars?  Also am I right in thinking that at some stage the 41xx numbers were changed to 42xx - for example was Covent Garden's 4248 previously 4148?

 

Q27.  Relatively straightforward (?) 4193-4393 (odd numbers). 4363-4375 turned and renumbered 4362-4374

 

Q31-Q35.  Here I get into a complete tangle!  My understanding is that all of the M class motors were converted to trailers and numbered 08813-08821 and 08830-08834.  The M and N trailers were numbered 8049-8083 if originally composites and 8781-8785 if originally all-third.  When did they acquire leading zeroes and were the numbers unchanged otherwise, even when the distinction between composites and thirds became irrelevant?

 

Q38.  Thanks to Piers Connor's various publications and articles I have what seems to be a complete list of the original Q38s and their conversion to CO/CP and R stock (so, by elimination, the ones that survived as Q stock motors or trailers).  What I do not understand why Q38 trailers were designated "A" end or "D" end and numbered differently when the Q31-35 trailers apparently were not?

 

Which is to say that I do not really understand "handing", how it affected the ways Q stock cars could be coupled to each other and therefore Q stock train formations.  For example, my range of Q stock will consist of a Q23 motor (west facing) and Q27 motor (east facing), flanking a Q35 trailer and a Q38 trailer.  Can these trailers be in either position in the formation and which way round would the "cab" end  of an 013xxx or an 014xxx trailer be?

 

With thanks in advance

Stephen

 

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Unlike main line coaches, most London Underground cars are "handed". Each car has an "A" end and a "D" end (the choice of "A" and "D" comes from the wheelsets being identified A, B C and D), and in most cases, you can only couple the "A" end of one car to the "D" end of another car. This saves having to duplicate electrical and air lines on both sides of the car. Q stock cars were handed in this way. Each car had the "A" end towards the west and the "D" end towards the east (this was standard for all District Line trains). When cars were turned (as happened at various stages in the life of Q stock), the electrical and air connections at each end of the car needed to be moved to create a mirror image of what it had been before, and male connectors changed to female connectors and vice versa.

 

3 hours ago, 34017Ilfracombe said:

What I do not understand why Q38 trailers were designated "A" end or "D" end and numbered differently when the Q31-35 trailers apparently were not?

Q38 trailer cars, like O and P stock trailer cars, were built with conversion into motor cars in mind, and had cab doors at one end. All trailers from all three types were designated "A" (numbered 013xxx) or "D" (014xxx), and this matches which end of the car the "cab" was. I have no idea whether anything else was affected; perhaps "A" and "D" cars were physically the same apart from the end connections, or perhaps "D" cars had the body the opposite way round to "A" cars in relation to the underframe equipment.

 

4 hours ago, 34017Ilfracombe said:

Can these trailers be in either position in the formation and which way round would the "cab" end  of an 013xxx or an 014xxx trailer be?

They can be either way round, in terms of Q23 "A" DM - Q35 T - Q38 T - Q27 "D" DM or Q23 "A" DM - Q38 T - Q35 T - Q27 "D" DM, although I suggest you check photographs, because I don't recall having seen the latter formation. However, what you cannot do is turn the trailers end to end. If you have an "A" end Q38, the cab doors need to be at the west end, and if you have a "D" end Q38, the cab doors need to be at the east end.

 

[Guest]

Jereny

Thank you for your clear and concise answer - It all makes much more sense to me now!

Stephen

[Mike Miller]

[Dublodad]

The D end of the car has a central buffer and the A end a central rubbing plate. as depicted above. An adapter was required to mechanically couple D to D. this was the case until the 1960 tube stock and then the 1967 tube stock.

[Chris H]

Hi all,

I stumbled across this thread by chance and I’m glad I did as I’d be up for making a nice mixed Q stock train but I have a question. If you have all the details on the computer to print the body and under frame parts etc., is it possible to upscale the files to 7mm scale to make 0 gauge trains?

I have a Radley Models 7mm Q23 Acton shuttle but would love to build an 0 gauge Q train, or just the two motors your doing now as they ran like that in the South Acton branch when the single cars were unavailable.
I’m looking forward to the 4mm ones though.
Cheers

Chris 

[roythebus1]

The west end (A end) motor cars didn't have electrical connections. they could couple with a D end car and the brake pipes could be coupled as could the Ward mechanical coupler, but that was it.

 

The last Q stock I worked was 2 pairs of Q38 pilot motors, taking 4 cars of 1959 R stock from Upminster to Ealing Common for scrapping in 1972. My motorman was Rick Thomas who let me drive all the way to Ealing Broadway as it was good practice for me. There was an Acton Town motorman in the back cab of the east end. There was a through brake and main air pipe with some sort of coupling adaptor between the R stock drawbars and the Ward couplers. At Ealing Broadway the Acton Town motorman drove the unit back into Ealing Common depot. An interesting journey to say the least as the train only had the Westinghouse brake operative and was limited to 28psi in the brake cylinders as the blow down valves wouldn't work on the R stock cars. 

[Lord of Narnia]

Another reason the Q38 trailers were designated A and D end was the A end cars had heavier underframes so they could accept the Metadyne machine - all 3 tonnes of it! 
 

In the end there were no new Metadyne conversions but when the Q38 cars were converted to R stock the bogies were mixed around on the remaining Q38 trailers. For reasons I have forgotten it was easier to take to bogies from the same end and fit the motors to these then try a A truck and D truck. 

[roythebus1]

I don't see that it would be easy to make trailer bogies into motor bogies. They are different frames for a start.

[Mike Miller]

A Q23 car at the London Transport Museum Syon Park Chiswick

[Lord of Narnia]

10 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

I don't see that it would be easy to make trailer bogies into motor bogies. They are different frames for a start.

According to the ‘R Stock Story’ by Piers Connor the A end bogies from the Q38 trailers were used to fit the single motor bogie on each R38 car. I don’t know why the A end bogies differed but it was noted that most Q38 trailers remaining had two D end bogies. 

[roythebus1]

12 hours ago, Lord of Narnia said:

According to the ‘R Stock Story’ by Piers Connor the A end bogies from the Q38 trailers were used to fit the single motor bogie on each R38 car. I don’t know why the A end bogies differed but it was noted that most Q38 trailers remaining had two D end bogies. 

It could be that A end bogies were designed to be fitted with motors, D end were designed not to have motors fitted. It's a long time since I worked on Q stock!! It's not simply a question of fitting motors, the suspension has to be modified to take the addition weight of the motor equipment and the torsional stress of having a motor there.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

There is an informative article here: https://www.lurs.org.uk/articles11_htm_files/01 may 11 DISTRICT ELECTRIC TRAINS.pdf. The important sentence is this one:

Quote

This was because there were slight differences in layout between “A” and “D” end bogies that made the fitting of the LT 111 type traction motors provided for the R Stock easier on those bogies originally positioned at the “A” end of cars.

 

Didn't all the flare-sided trains (O, P, Q and R stock) have one motor on each bogie of a motor car? Q38 trailers appear to have been built with motor bogies (at both ends), but without the motors fitted, and the A- and D-end bogies were slightly different, as stated above. When it came to conversion to R stock, R38 motor cars ended up with 2x Q38 A-end bogies, while the Q38 trailers that donated their A-end bogies ended up with 2x D-end bogies.

[Lord of Narnia]

Yes that’s what I read. Of course the WT54B traction motors fitted to the Q stock fleet (and also H stock fleet) were quite large pieces of kit, much bigger than the MV motors on the O/P stock which I assume was what the bogies were designed for. 

[Guest]

On 06/05/2023 at 15:20, Chris H said:

Hi all,

I stumbled across this thread by chance and I’m glad I did as I’d be up for making a nice mixed Q stock train but I have a question. If you have all the details on the computer to print the body and under frame parts etc., is it possible to upscale the files to 7mm scale to make 0 gauge trains?

I have a Radley Models 7mm Q23 Acton shuttle but would love to build an 0 gauge Q train, or just the two motors your doing now as they ran like that in the South Acton branch when the single cars were unavailable.
I’m looking forward to the 4mm ones though.
Cheers

Chris 

In principle it should be possible to produce a 7mm scale model from the drawings.  Potential issues are that the 4mm version has moulded on details such as handrails and these might look better as seperate items on a 7mm scale model. 

Cost might be another issue to consider - the 4mm kits are quite expensive and 7mm would be a lot more,

Apologies for the slow response

Stephen

 

[Guest]

Just to show that progress is being made, however slowly, these are the underframes and interiors for the Q35 and Q38 trailers.  Assembled bogiesvin the background.

Currently glazing the revised Q23 motor bodyshell prior to final assembly.

Stephen

[SteveCornford]

It looks to me as though you have correctly produced the asymmetric pivots of the Q38 bodies.

[roythebus1]

Any further developments on this project?

[Guest]

On 09/07/2023 at 21:45, roythebus1 said:

Any further developments on this project?

Nearly there - prototypes of all four cars (Q23, Q27, Q35 and Q38) have been built and successfully tested.  I have revised the underframe equipments in the light of the information, drawings and photos kindly supplied by forum members (though the prototypes still have the earlier design as the changes did not affect construction).

The Q23 body design has also been revised following valuable feedback from this forum and the prototype has been fitted with the new body to ensure that the parts go together as they should.

Tim at CW Railways has the revised STL files and is currently working on costings and I am drafting a new section to be added to the Eastleigh website for the launch.

[roythebus1]

Do you still need any information for the Q38 car? I still have the large scale LT drawing for it. I got that in te early 1970s when I was running GS Models and was intending to do it as a cast metal kit. I also have the 1938 tube stock drawing but that's already been done!

 

Anyway, all is looking good and I've got a couple of Black Beetle motors to go in them. :) I won't bother with the resin kit after all, it needs a lot of work to make it look right so hardly worth the trouble now yours are coming out. I can see a lot of demand for the Q38 as COP/R stock as well!

Edited July 14, 2023 by roythebus1
more info

[Guest]

CO/CP stock is a possibility, depending on how the Q stock goes.  If so, your drawings would be invaluable, as would this forum’s help to get the underfloor equipment and other detail right.