GWR B Sets and Livery Crossover

[TheEdge]

I've recently gone and got myself a second hand set of the Dapol B-Set coaches in N. Its the original release numbered 6873 and 6872. As I understand from online sources 6873 and 6874 would be an appropriate pair of E147 B Set coaches, 6872 is down as E125 diagram coach from a 4 vehicle formation. But that's by the by rather, its N, those running numbers are barely legible without getting them in your face.

 

I'm planning on doing a tiny shelf layout of some GWR riverside branch scene and I'm trying to get the right liveries to go together. The digging I've done makes me think that GWR Shirtbutton, with Third written on the doors and with a dark grey roof would make this particular paint scheme a mid-WWII application. I've come to that conclusion by mixing that it appears to be 1938 being when Third was added to doors and the grey roof being a wartime decision. The only reference I can find to the roof is that 1941(ish) white roofs got painted grey to make them less visible, but I cant see if that was the only situation where the GWR had a grey roof. If I wanted it to be very much pre-war would I need a white roof? 

If the grey roof does date it as a wartime livery which of the GWR liveries would be correct for the loco? I'm looking at running this with the upcoming run of Dapol Panniers. Would the Great Western full word livery still have been floating about on tank engines in the late 1930s early 1940s? My understanding is the G W R livery was a 1942 introduction, is that right?

 

This all feels a bit overly in depth but I just want it to be right. 

[Hal Nail]

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveries.html

 

fill your boots!

[TheEdge]

Thats where I've been getting my understanding from. I'm trying to narrow down what I've got, especially the coaches. I feel like they are painted into a really narrow window. 

[Ian Smith]

Although they may have been outshopped with a white roof, it would quite quickly darken to a smokey grey. Contemporary photos show relatively few white roofed vehicles.

[bécasse]

The white roofs were painted with a white lead paint. Chemical reaction with hydrogen sulphide in the air (even though this was present in absolutely minuscule amounts, even near gasworks and marshes) gradually changed the white lead oxide into near-black lead sulphide, hence the darkening of the white roofs in service. The rate of darkening did depend on the area where the vehicle worked but the roofs never got as far as being black.

 

Wartime repainting of roofs became urgent in the summer of 1940 when daytime raids started (machine gunning was at least as big a threat as bombing) and probably almost any dark colour paint would have been used. (London buses, which had had silver roofs, received various shades of brown, for example).

[TheEdge]

Ok, so a gray roof doesn't mean it has to be a WWII coach them. 

I suppose a bit of white wash would make it look more like a dirtied roof than a painted one?

[57xx]

7 hours ago, TheEdge said:

Ok, so a gray roof doesn't mean it has to be a WWII coach them. 

I suppose a bit of white wash would make it look more like a dirtied roof than a painted one?

 

Or go the other way and make them even grubbier, a nice matt non uniform dirty colour. If they are in shirtbutton it could be a good couple of years or more since they were repainted given you operating year so would have had plenty of time to oxidise and get dirty. The photo below shows examples of a variety of states to pick from.

 

[Miss Prism]

Nice shot of Newbury, looking surprisingly rural. The light grey on many of the horsebox roofs is interesting. What is the area of light-coloured land just north of the bay?

 

[Miss Prism]

I think your 6873/4 pair, lot completed in October 1934, would have been some of the first coaches to receive the shirtbutton. I doubt they were repainted before WWII, and would probably have gone through the war getting grimier and grimier.

[57xx]

24 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Nice shot of Newbury, looking surprisingly rural. The light grey on many of the horsebox roofs is interesting. What is the area of light-coloured land just north of the bay?

 

 

The pic is from 1928, but I don't know exactly what it is. It looks to be some sort of quarry, so maybe sand or gravel? There is a yard entrance to it from the left side approach road. Open the pic in another tab, it will zoom in a lot.

[bécasse]

2 hours ago, 57xx said:

 

The pic is from 1928, but I don't know exactly what it is. It looks to be some sort of quarry, so maybe sand or gravel? There is a yard entrance to it from the left side approach road. Open the pic in another tab, it will zoom in a lot.

It is shown as a "Gravel Pit" on the 1932 revision of the 25" OS map.

[Miss Prism]

Hmmm, presumably gravel went in low-sided opens?

[GWR_Modeller]

Sorry for change of subject but...

What is the road surface around the station, it looks very pale for tarmac and the main road over the bridge is slightly darker?

Paul

[bécasse]

2 hours ago, GWR_Modeller said:

Sorry for change of subject but...

What is the road surface around the station, it looks very pale for tarmac and the main road over the bridge is slightly darker?

It is almost certainly tarmacadam which lightens with age and use far more than you might imagine - and in country districts gets a fair amount of mud engrained into it as well. Add in the reflection of light from the sky and you get the appearance that you can see. The transverse line across the road visible just in front of the cars parked by the down side station building are a near-certain confirmation of the use of tarmacadam laid at different times - and the darker colour visible on the main road is most probably an indication of more recent renewal.

 

The use of tarmacadam on British roads seems to have become commonplace after the Great War. Before that, during the motor age, (noisy) granite setts were used in areas of high use in towns and tarred wood blocks in other important urban streets, while everywhere else, including suburban residential streets, macadam (graded stones, finest on the top surface) was the norm. This analysis is based on the careful examination of large numbers of datable postcard views from the time.

[GWR_Modeller]

Thanks.