News to me

[martin_wynne]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8782000/8782971.stm

[skipepsi]

Very much news to me,it seems strange that women and children would be on a troopship as well. The other questions are a lack of basic camoflage or escort ships etc, who sent the telegrams, where did the ship sink,was there an attempt to pass it off as a hospital ship the list is endless.

[Fat Controller]

Very much news to me,it seems strange that women and children would be on a troopship as well. The other questions are a lack of basic camoflage or escort ships etc, who sent the telegrams, where did the ship sink,was there an attempt to pass it off as a hospital ship the list is endless.

It was part of the evacuation of British and allied troops, along with any civilians who could get there, from France after the German invasion. Numbers of civilians who had been in Paris and the south and west of France headed to the various west coast ports, as the ones in the north were blockaded by the Germans. It sank very close to the shore at St Nazaire, but went down very quickly, hence the large number of casualties. The escort ships were rather busy at Dunkerque at the time. I've not heard of any attempt to disguise the vessel as a hospital ship, though this probably wouldn't have stopped the Germans attacking it anyway. News of the sinking was kept quiet, as Churchill didn't want to distract from the success of Dunkerque- this sort of suppression of bad news was relatively commonplace, with news of direct hits on shelters and similar things not making the news.

The Allies caused large scale civilian casualties in a similar way at the very end of the war in Europe, when a passenger vessel carrying four thousand or more German civilians fleeing the Russians was sunk off the Baltic coast.

[Oldddudders]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8782000/8782971.stm

The Intentional Fog of War! Horrid story, of course - but war is like that, and the needs of the Nation at that early stage, with more bad news than good by a mile, clearly came first. Presumably most RMWebbers have forbears (men and women) who served in that war, and there were plenty whose experiences were so ghastly that they didn't talk about them much in peacetime. We should just be grateful that they did what they did, that's all.

 

As for this being news - we like to think that we live in an era of Press freedom, but that's the point about news suppression - you don't know it's going on!

[The Stationmaster]

It was part of the evacuation of British and allied troops, along with any civilians who could get there, from France after the German invasion. Numbers of civilians who had been in Paris and the south and west of France headed to the various west coast ports, as the ones in the north were blockaded by the Germans. It sank very close to the shore at St Nazaire, but went down very quickly, hence the large number of casualties. The escort ships were rather busy at Dunkerque at the time. I've not heard of any attempt to disguise the vessel as a hospital ship, though this probably wouldn't have stopped the Germans attacking it anyway. News of the sinking was kept quiet, as Churchill didn't want to distract from the success of Dunkerque- this sort of suppression of bad news was relatively commonplace, with news of direct hits on shelters and similar things not making the news.

The Allies caused large scale civilian casualties in a similar way at the very end of the war in Europe, when a passenger vessel carrying four thousand or more German civilians fleeing the Russians was sunk off the Baltic coast.

 

By the time the 'Lancastria' was sunk the RN had ceased to operate off Dunkirk as it was in German hands.

 

Overall very little has got into the popular media about the large numbers of British troops (and British civilians) who were still in France after the fall of Dunkirk and the various evacuations from a number of ports further south.

 

The sinking of the 'Lancastria' was in fact eventually reported in the British press (after it had been published in New York) and one of those reports is in a book of wartime press cuttings I bought at auction last year. In fact the surprising thing about some of the cuttings is the extent to which some things were reported! However I think it more than fair to say - for obvious reasons at the time - that the sinking of the 'Lancastria' and its impact in terms of casualties etc was played down even when it finally came to be published.

 

The sinking of the 'Wilhelm Gustloff' by a Soviet submarine during the evacuation of East Prussia in early 1945 has sometimes been claimed to have involved the greatest ever loss of life resulting from the sinking of a ship, with 6,000 people lost according to German sources (the ship was carrying over 10,000 people). Like the 'Lancastria' the ship was carrying a mixture of military personnel and civilians and was claimed by at least one contemporaneous British press report to be a great victory in view of the number of military personnel who lost their lives.

[pH]

I had heard of the sinking of the ‘Lancastria’, and knew there had been significant loss of life, but I didn’t realise it had been so terrible. As Stationmaster says, there was a lot more to the evacuation of British and Allied troops and civilians from France than just Dunkirk - my late father-in-law was on one of the Royal Navy ships that evacuated several thousand men from the port of Boulogne.

 

The sinking of the ‘Lancastria’ wasn’t the only major naval disaster that was ‘hushed up’ during WW2. I was born in 1948, and lived in Glasgow and on the Clyde until I was in my early 20s. I didn’t find out about this sinking - the second highest naval loss of life in 'home' waters after HMS Royal Oak - until I was in my late 50s. Apparently, it was not mentioned in a newspaper until 1945, more than 2 years after it happened. When I did find out, it was purely by accident. My brother and I were standing in the lineup to pay in a bookshop in Greenock when he pointed to a map of Clyde shipwrecks on the wall and said “I’ve never heard of that one†– HMS Dasher, aircraft carrier.

 

(Edited to add some more detail)

[Fat Controller]

I had heard of the sinking of the ‘Lancastria’, and knew there had been significant loss of life, but I didn’t realise it had been so terrible. As Stationmaster says, there was a lot more to the evacuation of British and Allied troops and civilians from France than just Dunkirk - my late father-in-law was on one of the Royal Navy ships that evacuated several thousand men from the port of Boulogne.

 

The sinking of the ‘Lancastria’ wasn’t the only major naval disaster that was ‘hushed up’ during WW2. I was born in 1948, and lived in Glasgow and on the Clyde until I was in my early 20s. I didn’t find out about this sinking until I was in my late 50s. Even then, it was by pure accident. My brother and I were standing in the lineup to pay in a bookshop in Greenock when he pointed to a map of Clyde shipwrecks on the wall and said “I’ve never heard of that one†– HMS Dasher, aircraft carrier.

 

There is the anniversary of another one here:-

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/email/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/10490467.stm

These sinkings were before the convoy system was established, though impressed liners were often used independent of convoys anyway, as they were considerably faster than the majority of the merchantmen (20+ knots against 10 or so)

My grandmother's youngest brother spent the war on convoy duty, and was haunted by what he saw and heard until his death a few years ago.

I was amused to hear the references to diving into Llanelli docks by the chap being interviewed, as that's where my father learnt to swim as well.

[Kenton]

I didn't see it mentioned in that article but isn't there a memorial in a church in/near Fleet street and some stained glass window?

 

I am pretty sure I've read somewhere that it was specifically sent as a evacuation ship for the rear-guard troops from Dunkirk and that it was not alone.

 

You can understand Churchill et al desire to focus on the "victory" of the Dunkirk evacuation rather than what would have been the morale sapping loss of the Lancastria.

 

This is not exactly a secret more of one of those things that tends to be left to forget.

[petethemole]

Dunkirk was not, as commonly believed, the end of British military involvement in the 1940 campaign. British & Commonwealth troops were still being sent to France after Dunkirk. The loss of the Lancastria took place during Operation Ariel, the evacuation of the 'Second' BEF, that lasted until 25 June, when the cease fire took effect.

[Guest Dutch_Master]

Even so, after the capitulation of France covert Ops, helped by the French Resistance, set up escape routes for allied personel that for some reason was (still) in France and not captured and killed by the nazis. Switserland remained neutral so couldn't be trusted to allow military staff to return to the UK, but via Spain Portugal was in reach and from there returning to the UK was possible. Many allied airmen owed their lives to this hidden route. Many French helpers where betrayed by nazi henchmen and payed with their lives...

[Coxswain]

My Grandfather was with the AASF in 1940 and had quite a few stories about the headlong rush to the alantic ports (as he described it) before getting the last boat out of St Nazaire. Never mentioned this though, not that he ever spoke about any nasty stuff that he may have seen

[62613]

There is the anniversary of another one here:-

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/email/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/10490467.stm

These sinkings were before the convoy system was established, though impressed liners were often used independent of convoys anyway, as they were considerably faster than the majority of the merchantmen (20+ knots against 10 or so)

My grandmother's youngest brother spent the war on convoy duty, and was haunted by what he saw and heard until his death a few years ago.

I was amused to hear the references to diving into Llanelli docks by the chap being interviewed, as that's where my father learnt to swim as well.

 

 

I can't get this one to open; please help.

 

I've seen somewhere that the loss of life from the Wilhelm Gustloff was 9000. There was another in the south Atlantic when a U-boat torpedoed a Cunarder (can't remember its name, but it was sister-ship to Lancastria) carrying Italian POWs home from the Middle East. When they realised their mistake, the U-boat responsible started a rescue operation and called up several of his 'mates' to assist. Later on, an American plane fron Ascension turned up, and when they asked 'what do we do?' was told to attack the rescuers. This led to Donitz' 'no rescue' order.

[Fat Controller]

I can't get this one to open; please help.

 

I've seen somewhere that the loss of life from the Wilhelm Gustloff was 9000. There was another in the south Atlantic when a U-boat torpedoed a Cunarder (can't remember its name, but it was sister-ship to Lancastria) carrying Italian POWs home from the Middle East. When they realised their mistake, the U-boat responsible started a rescue operation and called up several of his 'mates' to assist. Later on, an American plane fron Ascension turned up, and when they asked 'what do we do?' was told to attack the rescuers. This led to Donitz' 'no rescue' order.

Mea culpa- I posted the link used to send the e-mail. Try this one:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/wales/10490467.stm

Brian