Renovating a Mainline Stanier Period III composite coach. Sow’s ear or Silk purse?

[teeinox]

This coach was on eBay in a bundle of two (the other was a Replica railways ex-LMS open third) at a bargain price of £23.50, including postage, for the pair.  So this cost £11.75, and some of you may say it was not worth that; you may be right!  Apparently, it’s a descendant of an Airfix model first produced in 1976, so not up to modern standards.  But if you want an ex-LMS period III composite, and the London Midland was very fond of such composites, there are few other R-T-R choices.  The other contenders are Hornby’s truly awful Stanier Period III composite dating from 1977, or Bachmann’s lovely “Porthole” composite which is not really a Period III coach.  This is what we started with:

 

 

The coach has many cons.  As you can see, there is the grim “bottle” glazing with its horribly deep window reveals.  Then, the emaciated bogies, an interior where the compartment doors are single, not double leaf as they should be, underframe detail which is both minimal and impressionistic, a cantrail design which is plain crude, and to cap off the cons, the hated tension-lock couplings.

 

And for the pros, the livery is nicely executed in Mainline’s characteristic “bright” maroon which looks good on this coach, giving it a rather attractive “fresh out of the works” look.  And the lining is crisp.  The interior seating is nicely moulded, the roof detail is well done, and both the end profile and side elevation look “right”.  Dimensionally, it scales at the correct 60’ length.  All in all, it does capture the “feel” of a Stanier coach.

 

So I thought it worth a go to see what could be done.  But this being a question of "Sow’s ear" and "Silk purse", the target was to make a passable layout coach, but not to spend any more money on it.  So, as the work proceeds, I shall let you know whether I could stick to my plan, starting with the body, roof, and glazing, and then the underframe and bogies.

Edited March 31, 2023 by teeinox

[Buhar]

SE Finecast Flushglaze doesn't appear to provide for this model (probably not enough made) but there's a good chance their glazing for the Replica/Mainline 57' (SE85) would fit.  Might be worth a punt.  The underframe improvements are pretty standard for a coach of that vintage and Bachman LMS bogies are available as spares.  I think you're in with a good chance.

 

Alan 

Edited April 1, 2023 by Buhar
Better info provided in post below

[Flying Pig]

26 minutes ago, Buhar said:

SE Finecast Flushglaze doesn't appear to provide for this model

 

Yes it does

 

SE60 - Airfix/ Dapol 60' CorrComp/ 57' CorBrk 202-1/ 203-4/ 204-7/ 205-0

 

However as the glazing is used to retain the roof on these models, you will need to find another way to do that if you discard it.

 

 

 

[teeinox]

Thank you for your various comments and suggestions.  So, bearing in mind my target of no extra expenditure at this point, here is how I got on with the body, the roof, and the glazing.

 

The main defect of the body shell is the window ventilator detail.  In the lavatory windows that detail is completely missing.  While the horizontal part of the frame was easy to fabricate from plastic strip, the frame round the rest of the ventilator was beyond me, at least for now.  On the main windows, the draught excluders are missing: their absence make the ventilators look curiously flat.  Making two 4mm by 0.25mm leaves to represent them was just too tiny to handle, so I compromised with a thicker single piece.

 

Turning to the roof, its detail is nicely moulded, with separate shell ventilators applied.  They should have been torpedo ones on this coach, M3868M, but I either have to live with that, or for correctness, change its number to a later one.   I chose living with it.  At the roof ends, the thickness of the moulding is very obvious, and the roof overhang too great.  I left the overhang alone, but tapered the inside of the moulding so that the roof ends appears both thinner and of a reasonably constant thickness.  Black paint provided disguise.  Here is the end view compared with that of a Hornby coach.

 

 

It looks quite respectable, especially after I replaced the original ridiculously small “A” markings with something of the right size, colour, and in the correct position.  As for the cantrails, I put a piece of black tape along them, and painted the rest BR maroon.  Again, a paint job that disguises their overscale thickness.  The gangway connectors look a trifle wonky: I shall have to try straightening them, as well as give them a dust (photos are cruel)!

 

And so to the glazing, where the problems really began.  Replacing the “bottle glass” manufacturer’s provision is not simple.  As designed, the two glazing strips hold the model together, the underframe and roof with clips, the body by the glazing locking into the window apertures.  To enable this, these strips have to slide vertically into the body moulding.  So the body sides are vertical on the inside, but curved on the outside to provide the correct external profile.  This results in window apertures that vary in depth from about 1mm at the top to about 2.5mm at the bottom.  Consequently, the flush glazing had to be made really thick to disguise this, which leads to the opaque bottle glass effect.  It’s a very clever method of construction, but replacing the glazing means finding other ways to hold the coach together: see below.

 

As for alternative glazing, SE FInecast make replacement windows, but having dumped them previously for poor optical effect, they were not an option.  Lazerglaze would be ideal, but this coach is not in the catalogue.  That just left plain glazing strip.  The lavatory windows were obscured with a thin wash of B.R. Inter-city grey paint, which worked well in representing the translucency of the prototype.  But while plain glazing does nothing to hide the depth of the apertures, at least one can now actually see the (now painted) interior detail:

 

 

What the photo highlights is how crude the window ventilator detail is, as well as the thickness of the window apertures, though you only notice that from some angles.  It doesn’t shout in one’s face as much as might be expected, at least from a distance, but this whole area remains unsatisfactory.  As an incidental, you can also see the single leaf compartment doors.  They should be double; a gracious LMS feature whose absence somehow really annoys me!

 

Since removal of the original glazing meant there was no longer anything to hold the whole caboodle together, its function was partly replaced by a couple of bolts between the interior and the underframe.  However, the roof is presently just an interference fit.  I shall have to find a solution, but just gluing it down would be an admission of failure!

So here is the coach coupled to a modern Hornby one.

 

 

Looks the part, and perhaps shows up just how drab Hornby’s attempt at maroon is.

 

Next is the underframe and bogies.  That will probably take me some weeks searching around in the spares box for suitable components.  So stay tuned for the next episode!

[uax6]

Could you paint the inside of the window holes with black paint to disguise their odd thicknesses?

How are the Hornby coaches glazed? Do their glazing incorporate the ventilators? Would they fit in the Mainline openings?

 

Just some thoughts...

 

Andy G

[teeinox]

21 hours ago, uax6 said:

Could you paint the inside of the window holes with black paint to disguise their odd thicknesses?

How are the Hornby coaches glazed? Do their glazing incorporate the ventilators? Would they fit in the Mainline openings?

 

Just some thoughts...

 

Andy G

Yes, its possible to paint the inside of the apertures with black paint (I mulled over the idea).  But doing it neatly is another matter and it would need to be very glossy to merge with the appearance of the glazing.   Would it work?  I don't know.  I tried it on a small scale elsewhere and wasn't taken.  But I could be wrong.

 

As for Hornby windows (I assume you are referring to their most modern variety of LMS coach), they are individual mouldings and are easy (too easy, some might say) to remove.  The window ventilator detail is painted onto the clear plastic, which is O.K.  The problems are two.  One is that the window ventilator detail has to be removed totally from the Mainline coach to accommodate them.  The other is that one is sacrificing a Hornby coach for the privilege, and they do not come cheap.  But if there was a sacrificial Hornby coach around, it might be worth a punt!

 

Many thanks for your suggestions.

[Flying Pig]

8 minutes ago, teeinox said:

As for Hornby windows (I assume you are referring to their most modern variety of LMS coach), they are individual mouldings and are easy (too easy, some might say) to remove.  The window ventilator detail is painted onto the clear plastic, which is O.K.  The problems are two.  One is that the window ventilator detail has to be removed totally from the Mainline coach to accommodate them.  The other is that one is sacrificing a Hornby coach for the privilege, and they do not come cheap.  But if there was a sacrificial Hornby coach around, it might be worth a punt!

 

I don't know how the Hornby windows are fixed, but I'm guessing they have some surround which glues to the inside of the coach?  If so they would not match the (varying) thickness of the Airfix coach side so they'd look odd unless you filed them down and fitted them individually.  And you'd need to check that the window apertures are the same shape on the two models - not guaranteed.

 

It's a pity you have such a nicely decorated incarnation of the carriage - if you had the muddy purple-brown Airfix original you'd have chopped off the sides and replaced them with Comet by now.

[teeinox]

On 05/04/2023 at 19:28, Flying Pig said:

 

I don't know how the Hornby windows are fixed, but I'm guessing they have some surround which glues to the inside of the coach?  If so they would not match the (varying) thickness of the Airfix coach side so they'd look odd unless you filed them down and fitted them individually.  And you'd need to check that the window apertures are the same shape on the two models - not guaranteed.

 

It's a pity you have such a nicely decorated incarnation of the carriage - if you had the muddy purple-brown Airfix original you'd have chopped off the sides and replaced them with Comet by now.

You are so right!  But considering a Comet solution focuses on the fundamental problem which is how to achieve flush glazing which is optically decent when using moulded plastic sides which have deep apertures.  My view is that the modern attempts by Hornby and Bachmann still have a prismatic affect which, while acceptable, is still not right.  And that is not a criticism: what other solution is there when dealing with a moulded plastic body?  The virtue of Comet is that the etched sides are thin, so simple glazing can be employed and so, optically, a good flush glazing effect can be achieved.

 

But then, winding the clock back 60 years ago to an R-T-R offering of the day, that is what Hornby-Dublo did with their Super Detail coaches!

 

 

It has always been a matter of debate and criticism as to why they retained the lithographed tinplate sides.  I wonder if they looked at contemporary offerings, mainly Tri-ang, and decided the look of the windows was unacceptable and retaining the tinplate for the sides was the only solution? 

[Wheatley]

Replica do (or at least did)  a set of Mk 1 window mouldings similar to the Hornby ones. They might need filing to fit and the ventilators are the Mk1 type, but some batches of LMS coaches were built with something similar. 

 

I chickened out and went for Comet !

Edited April 7, 2023 by Wheatley

[BernardTPM]

Extra doors would need to be added to the corridor side to suit those later windows, as per the following 'Porthole' stock. Could make an interesting project for the spare body I have.

[DCB]

On 04/04/2023 at 19:44, teeinox said:

.  Here is the end view compared with that of a Hornby coach.

 

 

e!

The Hornby could use some black paint on the buffers.

 

4 hours ago, teeinox said:

 

 

 

It has always been a matter of debate and criticism as to why they retained the lithographed tinplate sides.  I wonder if they looked at contemporary offerings, mainly Tri-ang, and decided the look of the windows was unacceptable and retaining the tinplate for the sides was the only solution? 

We have a rake of Dublo Mk1s and in video they look fantastic as they flash past with light glinting on the windows and sides just like the real thing.  Its just sad that they squeezed an extra door into a 57ft  coach when it should have been 64ft.  They are also the best riding coaches we have with compensated bogies and almost never derail.

 

In the BR steam era the stock of principle main line expresses was finished in high gloss  washed regularly.  Only much later in blue era did the eggshell finish become the norm

 

On 04/04/2023 at 19:44, teeinox said:

 

 

 

Looks the part, and perhaps shows up just how drab Hornby’s attempt at maroon is.

Difficult to explain away the difference in colour, they look fine individually but to me just do not look like part of the same set..    

[teeinox]

Well, it’s taken far longer than expected to deal with the underframe and bogies.  To begin with the underframe, there was not a lot there to start with, as the photo shows:

 

 

No cross trussing, a bizarre moulding for the dynamo, and just a half-hearted vacuum brake cylinder with no rodding.  So considerable reconstruction was required.  My aim was not perfection, but to make something which was adequately convincing.  I used the Hornby coach underframe as my guide.  The cross trussing was fairly easy to fabricate with plastic strip.  The vacuum cylinders were trickier.  What there is, is about the right width, but not high enough.  And there is no piston.  I fabricated the piston from two surplus buffers and made the rest of the linkage from plasticard strip.  As for the dynamo, I just stuck a dynamo moulding I happened to have on top of the strange moulding.  Everything was then finished off with a coat of black paint to remove the shiny plastic look.  It all turned out rather well.

 

As for the bogies, these needed sorting to accommodate Hornby/Roco close couplings.  This went well, except that after setting the clearances involved, I discovered that the pins attaching the bogies to the underframe were so undersized that they allowed about 4mm play fore and aft!  The play has been reduced, but not eliminated, by washering out the bottom of the pin to tighten the assembly.  As a by-product, this has eliminated body rock with the result that the coach behaved perfectly on its test run, with the bogies running very freely.

 

So while function was good, appearance was not.  To help disguise the emaciated “look”, I glued a strip of plasticard along the top of the sideframes.  This did indeed narrow the gap between the bogie sideframes and the solebars, just about enough.  At a casual glance, it passes, but it isn’t really too fabulous.  But this is the “no cost” solution which was my aim.  Here is a close-up of how the bogie looks, along with a slice of the underframe:

 

 

So that is the end of the story of renovating my £11.75 purchase without spending a penny more.  This photo shows the state of the coach after renovation:

 

 

And here it is in the centre of an early 1960s Cumbrian Coast consist, hauled by a Co-Bo:

 

 

It looks at home between the other 2 coaches.

 

So, is it a Silk purse?  No, and it cannot be unless, at least, the bogies are changed for something better and the glazing improved.  Doing that means spending significant money as well as uplifting other areas such as the moulded handrails.

 

But, is it a Sow’s ear, or to put it another way, a complete waste of time and money?  No, it’s better than that; the renovations have succeeded in making a quite respectable layout coach.   Am I tempted to invest further?  On balance, I think not.  It is not a coach I would keep if something better came out.  But I have certainly had a good £11.75 worth of entertainment renovating it!

[Ben Alder]

Perfectly OK as a "layout" coach as it is now - well done. These old Airfix coaches are the backbone of my fleet, with Comet sides and underframe detailing frets from MJT and I've never felt any need to upgrade them.