DC>E-Link>Digitrax DCS52/JMRI>Now what? (Given HM7000 has arrived)

[wappinghigh]

Ok, so what are we to make of Hornby's new HM7000 Bluetooth compatible control/range?

 

As the title suggests, over the years on my layout I have moved from DC to DCC (Railmaster/E-Link) to a Digitrax DCS52 controller which I manually use/throttle at the same time I am using JMRI running on my macbook pro 

 

So what are we to make of where Hornby wishes the HM7000 to "take us"? 

 

What I have discovered so far

 

1/ The E-link is not compatible with the HM7040 "Dongle". There is no plug in the unit to connect the dongle to it... So Hornby?.. basically am I supposed to ditch this and throw it in the bin? 

2/ I love My Digitrax DCS52. It's been problem free and the throttle is fun to use.. I think I have a connection point for the new Hornby dongle.. but wait.. best to check the communication protocol you might ask! Yep not compatible!!! (It's loconet not XpressNet!) So Hornby am I now supposed to ditch my DCS52?!!!

3/ I like using JMRI. So how does Hornby's HM7000 interface with that? Will it ever? Is there a way? So Hornby am I supposed to ditch all the time and effort setting up JMRI (just to control yr new bluetooth DCC chips .just because you think it's the best thing since sliced bread and is going to "revolutionise DCC control"? )

 

Is it only me who thinks this is yet another attempt by Hornby to "wrestle control" of our layouts (think their railmaster/e-link marketing spin).. only that yet again this will fail because it tries to lock us down to their ecosystem (it;s not open source)?

 

Why am I starting to think the HM7000 is just for glorified train sets or to entice people back into the hobby with cool marketing spin like "Bluetooth control".. and that it will all end in tears??

 

Comments welcome (and any help with interfacing HM7000 into my setup)

 

Cheers! 

Edited April 8, 2023 by wappinghigh

[Nigelcliffe]

Eventually, batteries in locos and some form of bi-directional wireless control will become the normal way to do things (I wrote an article about that well over ten years ago).   The question is when, and with what methods.   For that, I argued that some sort of standard is required - the reason DCC took off was a standard, prior to DCC there were dozens of digital control systems available in different counties which came and went rather quickly (one of many was Hornby's Zero-1 which lasted seven years from fanfare launch to being dropped, and that was far from the worst in terms of longevity).  

 

Will JMRI take on the HM7000 - don't know.   At present no because there's no technical documentation on how to connect to it.  If there is documentation, I expect someone will add it.  (But having been involved with adding the Hornby Elite to JMRI, the Hornby implementation of Xpressnet on the Elite had a few holes in it ).    
 

Will the HM7000 become a "standard" - unlikely in my opinion, Hornby aren't great with standards, tending towards an approach of "Hornby is a standard" rather than industry standards setting bodies.  ( See also the new HM7000 decoders, advertised as Next18, when they're not because they're far too big.  Next18 describes the plug AND the maximum dimensions of the decoder,  the standard is the entire thing so a loco maker knows exactly how much space they are to create around the socket to be sure any Next18 decoder will fit.  A decoder which is bigger than the standard is therefore not made to the standard.  ). 

 

I expect the "standard" wireless control will come out of either Europe (where there is an established consortium which sets standards) or the US (if the NMRA can get their act together again, as they did over DCC).  

 

Yes, Hornby expect you to ditch your DCS52,  its "not Hornby".   

 

 

[Bob83a]

I think that a little clarification to this is needed, HM7000 is a range of things.

 

Will JMRI support the HM7000, I am fairly sure the answer will be Yes it will support the decoders in DCC mode. If the decoders conform to the DCC standard then why not. But of course the things that can only be done on Bluetooth would not be supported, E.g.  no sound loading.

 

Will JMRI support Bluetooth, maybe, most tablets and some PC’s already support Bluetooth, hence the ambility to run the app on tablets. But will it support Hornby’s protocol used over Bluetooth, probably not but there may be a standard protocol in the future.

[wappinghigh]

Thanks for the replies everyone - well I guess that's what I expected... so much fanfare and build up about the HM7000 then you look beneath the hood and it's Hornby just being Hornby.. not really "open API"...(even though the bluetooth protocol is supposed to be open) ... they are sort of hinting they can become the "new way of doing DCC"...yet once you dig a bit deeper you realise they aren't being "open standard" at all.. so I think as a consequence this is going to go the way of every other Hornby "attempt" to computer (in this case an app) control our trains and layouts. Ist it was "Zero-1", then E-Link/Railmaster, then a HC6000 (a kind of analog to bluetooth) now this, the HM7000

 

If this is to take on for serious layouts - it;s got to be OPEN source... and the fact it doesn't sync with Loconet, heck not even their very first attempt at Computer control (E-link).. well there are giant red flags there is all I'm saying.. (for this to really "take a foot hold" on peoples layouts)....

 

So I won't be swapping out all my DCC chips and I certainly won't be ditching my Digitrax ... well not until the dust settles (and I see where this goes within JMRI)

 

Just MO   

Edited April 8, 2023 by wappinghigh

[RAF96]

Even if you only ever intend to run them on DCC, the free app that loads free sound profiles that set up your loco CVs for all sorts of things is worth the effort. Park the app in a drawer until next time you need it and carry on as you are with your existing kit.

[auditdata]

Is there not a similar system from SOUNDTRAXX the BLU-2200 Given it has been around for over a year has this become a standard or might it? Is it supported in JMRI?

[wappinghigh]

"What is the difference between Blunami and JMRI?"

Quoted from the website.

 

The exact same reasoning could be said of HM7000.

 

"JMRI is open-source computer based software for controlling DCC. JMRI includes a PC interface used in conjunction with a command station to provide through-the-rails DCC and functionality. "Decoder Pro" is a PC interface in JMRI for editing decoder settings.  The Android app “Engine Driver” (WiThrottle on iOS) is a model railroad throttle app for use with JMRI. These apps connect wirelessly to the WiThrottle server (part of JMRI).  JMRI then uses through-the-rails DCC to send signals to locos, which involves the conversion of packets into electrical pulses. CVs can be read in JMRI using a programming track.

Blunami creates a direct wireless connection to your decoder, allowing for train control and settings customization without the need for any hardware, software or drivers.  App communication with the Blunami is wireless and bidirectional. Your phone becomes a a direct high-speed interface to the decoder. The signal is never converted to analog or subject to signal degradation associated with through-the-rails transmission.

The Blunami app is custom designed for the features in the SoundTraxx decoder. The app is full-featured and easy to use.

Blunami and the associated Blunami app give you all the benefits of Decoder Pro and Engine Driver (or WiThrottle) without the need for additional hardware or software. Blunami has the added benefit of bi-directional wireless communication, and a control app designed specifically for the decoder's features."

 

Reading this marketing blurb you would think do we even need JMRI anymore?

 

Do we need an interface between these bluetooth based app control and JMRI (and or our DCC controllers)?

 

Many of us have multiple DCC locos. Some of us have DCC control of other things built into JMRI (points, lighting, signals etc)

 

So The answer of course is is yes. Of course we need an interface 

 

Are these companies (Soundtraxx and Hornby) seriously proposing we change every single DCC chip (and control) into their bluetooth app "environment"

 

Well that would be absurd.. right? I mean we are finding out some locos are to small to take the chips. There are a myriad of other reasons... cost ...(is a big one)  and lack of chip supply would be another! 

 

See that is why Hornby released their HM7040 dongle... for this very reason...

 

Yet it's now found it is not 1/USB (so doesn't plug into a laptop for interface into JMRI and 2/ The communication protocol is not "open".. it's XpressNet so it won't work with Digitrax loconet...

 

This is my point.. 

 

That dongle is useless (unless it's open source and interfaces with other control software that is non phone app based)

 

And without out that dongle..the whole bluetooth app based "idea", ie control ecosystem - comes crashing down..

 

As end users will always be flip flopping between applications and end up ditching the app control of their trains and layouts and going back to their physical throttles or computers.. 

 

Just MO 

Edited April 8, 2023 by wappinghigh

[wappinghigh]

3 hours ago, RAF96 said:

Even if you only ever intend to run them on DCC, the free app that loads free sound profiles that set up your loco CVs for all sorts of things is worth the effort. Park the app in a drawer until next time you need it and carry on as you are with your existing kit.

Exactly!

 

Hornby can;t even get HM7000 to interface with their previous legacy software control platform (Railmaster/E-link) ...Which I notice you use. 

 

I mean come on!

 

(What are they saying?.. they couldn't be "bothered"?)

 

Do they think their customers are stupid? That they don't realise the support has been dropped?..

 

That for me is one big Hornby fail

 

Zero support for their customers running their very own Hornby legacy platform...

Edited April 8, 2023 by wappinghigh

[wappinghigh]

And further... E-link never worked with JMRI.. nobody could get it synced... (it was never open source)

 

So we have Hornby never supporting communication between E-link and JMRI

Now we have them not supporting (ie interfacing HM7000) with it's legacy Railmaster/E-link 

We have Hornby not supporting (ie interfacing HM7000) with JMRI

And we have Hornby not supporting (ie interfacing) with LocoNet (one of the major NRMA standards)

 

In other words they want to "lock it down"..

 

Therefore - it will never "take hold"...It will fail as a control system 

 

Just MO.

[wappinghigh]

https://www.jmri.org/help/en/html/hardware/XPressNet/index.shtml

 

JMRI - Hornby Elite is "partially" supported via it's USB XpressNet protocol 

 

What does "partially" mean?

Has anyone here tried this?

Apparently (we are led to believe by Hornby) the HM7040 dongle  also communicates via Xpressnet thru it's R45 socket 

 

So do I ditch the Digitrax (sell it on ebay) and put in a Hornby Elite? 

[Nigelcliffe]

 

Hornby not supporting LocoNet is fair enough -  LocoNet is a proprietary system owned by Digitrax.  They license it (for a fee) to some other makers, but it isn't an "open standard" which you're talking about.    Xpressnet is a proprietary system owned by Lenz, which Lenz have licensed to a number of makers, including Hornby.  Its not an "open standard" either, though I think more of the documentation is public.    

The only thing which might be an international open standard is NMRA's LCC, but only a handful of small US makers support that.  Or perhaps one could cite CBUS used by MERG in the UK for kit built stuff, and one small UK manufacturer for a couple of items.  

 

 

Most manufacturers don't "provide" JMRI support.   Almost no manufacturers provide "open source", though some provide reasonable documentation.  

JMRI support gets added by hobbyist enthusiasts who are interested in adding a particular bit of hardware.   That requires two things for it to happen, some reasonable documentation from a manufacturer, and someone who is interested in adding that hardware and interested in getting the code written (either they write it, or they talk to someone else who has the skills to do it for them).      There are a few exceptions, manufacturers who do provide their own code into JMRI, but its not very many.     
I've been contributing to JMRI for over fifteen years, and some of the stuff people use all the time is my design work.   I don't think anyone I know in the development side of JMRI would be bothered about bluetooth control systems - eventually that's how train control will go, some sort of wireless bi-directional control, but as and when it happens the software side will need to evolve to support it.    

 

JMRI isn't the only model railway control software around which supports multiple different hardware suppliers.  I know of at least eight, and there are going to be many more I don't know about.   

 

 

1 minute ago, wappinghigh said:

https://www.jmri.org/help/en/html/hardware/XPressNet/index.shtml

 

JMRI - Hornby Elite is "partially" supported via it's USB XpressNet protocol 

 

What does "partially" mean?

Has anyone here tried this?

 

 

Read the headings immediately above where it explains "partial "  (the Elite doesn't support "feedback") .    There are a few other (usually minor) gremlins as well, but I don't see any point discussing those when you seem to be on a one-man-rant, rather than trying to understand stuff.    (Yes, I have used an Elite with JMRI, it was some years ago helping someone else with their layout, which is where debugging some of how the Elite interface inside JMRI happened.   ).  

 

 

 

 

 

[Nigelcliffe]

2 hours ago, auditdata said:

Is there not a similar system from SOUNDTRAXX the BLU-2200 Given it has been around for over a year has this become a standard or might it? Is it supported in JMRI?

 

Your guess on "standard" is as good as anyone else.   

Yes, its in JMRI:  

https://www.jmri.org/xml/decoders/SoundTraxx_Blu_Diesel.xml

https://www.jmri.org/xml/decoders/SoundTraxx_Blu_Electric.xml

https://www.jmri.org/xml/decoders/SoundTraxx_Blu_Steam.xml

 

[wappinghigh]

Thanks for all the help

I am not on a rant BTW- I am just tired of Hornby not supporting even it's own legacy systems...

And thinking they and only they have all the answers to train and layout control..

That is what they have been implying with the new HM7000 release..

I've watched all the marketing vids.. 

I mean not supporting Railmaster? 

Not supporting JMRI (properly)?

Come on..

Just because it's bluetooth...

Do they seriously think without doing this the HM7000 system is going to be the future platform?

(just MO) 

[NIK]

Hi,

 

Hornby are a commercial company. They have had financial difficulties in the past, one of which resulted in 50% of the model range being removed from the catalogue.

 

If they think they can do better for themselves by not publishing their Bluetooth feature's protocol then that is up to them.

 

Maybe as Bluetooth is RF and thus can be intercepted forces them to reduce the risk of loco or layout hijacking then things get more complicated.

 

I've had a large club layout hijacked by a club member after we added a Wifi control option and I didn't find it pleasant.

 

Regards

 

Nik

 

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by NIK

[Bob83a]

The HM7040 dongle connects to a command station using an RJ12 connector. It converts the Bluetooth signals from the App on a phone or tablet into Xpressnet which tells the command station what to send on the DCC bus.

Xpressnet is supported by the Elite/Select, Lenz and some other manufactures who may also provide RJ12 connection.

 

Hornby are testing the dongle with both the Elite and Select and have also mentioned some testing with Lenz devices. Testing can be a very expensive exercise and take considerable time.

 

The problem with the E-link is there is no RJ12 connection and it is not economic to re-engineer it to add one. I suppose Hornby could develop an E-link mark 2 but it would be a case of ditch the existing version.

 

All of the Hornby command station have a USB connection, so it might be possible to develop a dongle that convert the Bluetooth to USB, but it is again a question of cost.

 

The USB connection is the one that JMRI uses to communicate with some command stations like the Hornby ones. It also can use a serial interface or Ethernet connection. There is no interface at present to use Bluetooth directly.

 

You can use your Digitrax command station with JMRI but in most cases this requires an adapter that converts a serial or USB connection into Loconet.

 

I am sure that some nice person, possibly Nigel or one of his knowledgable colleagues will generate the necessary definitions so that JMRI can talk to HM7000 decoders via a Command station of some type. This command station does not need to be a Hornby one. But JMRI development is done by generous individuals giving up their time and they generally only do it if they themselves benefit. So JMRI will almost certainly support HM7000 decoders but not directly using Bluetooth.

If there were to be a Bluetooth standard then it probably would be likely that JMRI would support it 

[wappinghigh]

^ Awesome response Bob...

It's hard to disagree with any of that..

Yep I saw thru all the HM7000 "hype" straight away

And like you I realised it was all going to be about "that dongle"...

I know it's not released yet..but it is the key to acceptance of the entire new platform..

So simple question..

Knowing all that..(And Hornby management would also know all this too...)

Why then didn't Hornby simply release it as a USB version? 

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by wappinghigh

[Ron Ron Ron]

3 hours ago, auditdata said:

Is there not a similar system from SOUNDTRAXX the BLU-2200 ……….

The name of the “system”  ( for want of a better description), is Blunami.

The BLU-2200 is the model number one of two decoders released so far in this range (the other is the BLU-4408).

More are planned.

 

Blunami is the mating together of SoundTraxx’s top end Tsunami sound decoder and the BlueRail Trains BlueTooth based train control.

The Blunami app was created by BlueRail Trains for SoundTraxx and is a slight modification of their own app.

 

Tam Valley Depot (makers of Frog Juicers and other electronic goodies) produce a BlueRail Trains decoder for use in battery powered (dead rail) locos. It’s sold as “BlueRailDCC by Tam Valley”.

An earlier version of the BlueRail Trains “system” is also factory fitted into a range of Bachmann locos, sold in the USA and first released about 6 or 7 years ago IIRC.
It’s called E-Z App and is still on sale.

So Bachmann have been using similar tech to Hornby’s  HM DCC for a good few years already.

 

All the versions of the BlueRail Trains system (Blunami, BlueRailDCC by Tam Valley and Bachmann’s E-Z App) feature multiple consisting.

I’m baffled why Hornby haven’t included consisting from day one?

 

 

.

[wappinghigh]

37 minutes ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

Hornby are a commercial company. They have had financial difficulties in the past, one of which resulted in 50% of the model range being removed from the catalogue.

 

If they think they can do better for themselves not publishing their Bluetooth feature's protocol then that is up to them.

 

Maybe as Bluetooth is RF and thus can be intercepted forces them to reduce the risk of loco or layout hijacking then things get more complicated.

 

I've had a large club layout hijacked by a club member after we added a Wifi control option and I didn't find it pleasant.

 

Regards

 

Nik

 

 

Sure 

For the reasons you have pointed out (ability to take back bluetooth control from rouge users)

Hornby having proper integration into legacy computer controlled DCC (likely on most club layouts) is entirely why they should have given more thought to proper support across all legacy platforms for "that dongle"

 

[wappinghigh]

14 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The name of the “system”  ( for want of a better description), is Blunami.

The BLU-2200 is the model number one of two decoders released so far in this range (the other is the BLU-4408).

More are planned.

 

Blunami is the mating together of SoundTraxx’s top end Tsunami sound decoder and the BlueRail Trains BlueTooth based train control.

The Blunami app was created by BlueRail Trains for SoundTraxx and is a slight modification of their own app.

 

Tam Valley Depot (makers of Frog Juicers and other electronic goodies) produce a BlueRail Trains decoder for use in battery powered (dead rail) locos. It’s sold as “BlueRailDCC by Tam Valley”.

An earlier version of the BlueRail Trains “system” is also factory fitted into a range of Bachmann locos, sold in the USA and first released about 6 or 7 years ago IIRC.
It’s called E-Z App and is still on sale.

So Bachmann have been using similar tech to Hornby’s  HM DCC for a good few years already.

 

All the versions of the BlueRail Trains system (Blunami, BlueRailDCC by Tam Valley and Bachmann’s E-Z App) feature multiple consisting.

I’m baffled why Hornby haven’t included consisting from day one?

 

 

.

Nice one

I'd switch to Blunami Bluetooth decoders for sure!

 

If

1/ They had a ready library of "as preserved" soundtracks specific to (and recorded from) most of the common classes of British steam and diesel locomotives we see preserved and/or running today (I am led to believe they don;t) 

2/ They had a "Dongle" that interfaced with Digitrax Loconet and JMRI which would allow control of non bluetooth decoders from within either the Blunami or Sountraxx app...

 

Are either of these statements false?

 

Thanks!  

Edited April 8, 2023 by wappinghigh

[Mike Buckner]

There's no law forcing anyone to use HM7000 or any other system.

 

If  a modeller doesn't like some system or other, then don't buy into that system.

[wappinghigh]

2 minutes ago, Mike Buckner said:

There's no law forcing anyone to use HM7000 or any other system.

 

If  a modeller doesn't like some system or other, then don't buy into that system.

Agree

But see here is the problem

Hornby have by far and away the largest market share of UK locomotives and model railroading..

So what they are doing cannot be ignored

Cheers

Edited April 8, 2023 by wappinghigh

[wappinghigh]

JMRI <> Lenz

 

"Full

Operating Programming Feedback

Lenz LZ100 based systems (software version 3.x)

Lenz LZV100 based systems (software version 3.x)

Lenz LZV200 based systems (software version 3.x)"

 

Looks like the HM7040 will support Lenz ...via XPressnet (I will wait for the actual confirmation from Hornby)

 

So maybe the best way forward for UK modellers like me (who run a lot of DCC Hornby loco's) ...and wish to keep their older DCC chips in alot of their locos - as well as add a few HM7000 chips into other ones (as well).... is to switch to Lenz DCC control? 

Edited April 8, 2023 by wappinghigh

[auditdata]

Thanks all. These posts are super useful. I have been into this hobby for all of 2 weeks! Arrived here by Youtube’s algorithm signposting Sams Trains and Jennifer E. Kirk. In the first week I was trying to get my head around where to go and the Hornby Bluetooth seemed to be the easy way for a newbie to get started. Then in the second week ago I discovered JMRI and my head exploded. So in the post are 3 Bachmann locos, 1 HM7000-21TXS, 1 Loksound V5, SPROG3 and some tracks and points, a Hornby Power Supply (as I don't want the HM7000 to blow up and have Hornby say I did it) :-) a couple of coaches and an accessory decoder with odd LEDs. I am going to be busy when the postperson arrives after Easter. From reading these posts it also looks like I am about to discover the world of compatibility/incomparability but I am sure I will have fun on the journey. I might have to put of “Signalling logic” to week 52! 😬

[wappinghigh]

^Sam and JK are the 2 of the very best to follow on youtube.

Sam is more sceptical about HM7000 - Jenny is a bit of a Hornby fan(person) 😀

Sam is great on the locomotives JK more broad reviews 

They are both awesome reviewers though I follow both channels along with EuviRail (which just did a great review on the decoders (size) 

Be interesting what these three  find when they get their hands on an HM7040 as they all run different DCC setups...

I won't be touching this dongle until I see all of them take a look at it.

Just MO

[Oldddudders]

Whenever a new version of train control comes along, surely the first issue is what does this do for my layout that I can't do now? Does it make control easier/more reliable, or give me access to new features my current system lacks? 

 

Since the OP finds his DCS52 a joy to use, and has the benefits of JMRI, I'm not clear what value this Hornby product would add to his operations.

 

I think in his shoes, I'd be adding a DT602DE and a UR93, providing walkaround control with twin throttles. 

 

Of course, I do understand that some people just enjoy tinkering with the far reaches of DCC and finding what it can do. DCC as a hobby in itself, rather than as a means to run trains realistically.