Add on a inclined baseboard adjacent to wall?

[ITG]

At late stages of design and close to early stages of building a 00 round the room layout. I have some professionally built 6mm laser cut ply boards (with own legs) each 1200x450mm (48”x18” approx). I’m thinking that two/three of these will house a visible 8 road through storage yard, which junctions off the twin main line that continues to run behind the yard. The 8 storage roads sit nicely on the 450mm wide boards, and so I need to add boards behind them, next to the wall. But after the junction, the main lines and a branch line need to rise at max 2%, so need a minimum of some 200-250mm width, allowing for a little separation from yard. These three lines then need to go round a 90 degree turn in the corner, so the bend will also need to be inclined.

I’m looking for suggestions as to how best to construct this extra board, which starts level and rises. 
Options could be:

1. Battens attached to existing board and wall for a level extension, and build incline on that.

2. As 1 above, but actually make the added board sit at the required incline. Would the battens be level and risers lift the board, or would the battens themselves be sloping?

3. use shelf brackets attached to wall, with no actual connection to existing board, either level (like 1 above) or inclined (like 2 above)

 

Any other thoughts?

I may have some usable MDF I could use for this extension, or maybe buy some more ply.

thanks

Ian

 

[DCB]

The curved inclined baseboard is going to be an issue, My advice, don't do it. L girder construction with separate track bases just wide enough for the double track and a second for the single as they have to twist, or the tracks will be inclined at 1 in 50 sideways after 90 degrees.   The risers on the curve really need to be at right angles to the track.  I fixed a batten to give the centre of the circle from which the radius of the curve is derived as my gradient curved away from the junction and  I   lined up the  battens  at right angles to  the track, even then I had to adjust them.   There is also an issue with long wheelbase 4 wheel wagons derailing on sharp curves on steep gradients mine is 3rd radius and 1 in 36 ish and Lima CCTs with pizza cutter flanges can't get round and have been banned, so modern RP25 flanges on a CCT might be an issue of 1 in 50 and 2ft radius.

The other issue is making sure the level baseboard is level, my level baseboard was about 1 in 75 before I jacked one end of the shed up and packed some baseboard legs and still isn't level.   Spirit levels are often 1% out so every time the level has to be turned 180 degrees and the error evened out as a 1 in 50 on a 1 in 100 becomes a 1 in 33.   I would build the new baseboard on the existing baseboard but make it adjustable and  only wide enough for the tracks, the lower end probably need to flex to avoid a sharp vertical kink in the track, the finer the wheel profiles the easier the transition needs to be.

[ITG]

Thanks DCB, a good point about the curved incline. I think (on Anyrail) I can get radii around the 90 degree inclined turn of the three tracks of 750, 800 and 850mm, which allows for the level storage road yards sitting inside them.  Makes sense to use separate bases for the single and double track, and to allow for ‘twist’. 
On my current layout (soon to be dismantled to provide track etc for the new one), I have a 2% incline around R3 curve, using Woodland Scenics inclines, and experience no running issues at all. Most of my stock is Bachmann, produced in last 20 years max. But I do accept that the twist across 3 tracks introduces a different consideration. Using WS inclines for three tracks, which only need to rise 40mm at that point, would be an expensive way of doing it.

Ian

[RobinofLoxley]

@ITG we never got to that point but my own layout where there is a rise around a corner has the corner section which is actually like a Trapezium, specified flat so the sections either side can rise in one plane each. I'm still building it. All the rising sections are sitting on the original flat baseboard platform and my plan is to brace them individually avoiding point motor locations and remove some of the underlying baseboards to help with wiring access. I should have removed some pieces at an earlier stage! 

 

Also I don't use cork. I use 2mm underlay which is actually a building product specified for underlay type situations - it's plastic cushioning and using 2-3 layers helps with gradient transitions and also for superelevation. I have yet to find out how ballasting works with it.

[ITG]

18 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

@ITG we never got to that point but my own layout where there is a rise around a corner has the corner section which is actually like a Trapezium, specified flat so the sections either side can rise in one plane each. I'm still building it. All the rising sections are sitting on the original flat baseboard platform and my plan is to brace them individually avoiding point motor locations and remove some of the underlying baseboards to help with wiring access. I should have removed some pieces at an earlier stage! 

 

Also I don't use cork. I use 2mm underlay which is actually a building product specified for underlay type situations - it's plastic cushioning and using 2-3 layers helps with gradient transitions and also for superelevation. I have yet to find out how ballasting works with it.

Thanks @RobinofLoxley I was pondering the idea of keeping the curve flat. To do that, and manage the space by lengthening the straight section (2%) inclines, I’d need to reduce the inner of the 3 tracks to R2 (and other two accordingly). In itself not an issue, as it will be hidden.

I’ve toyed with the opposite idea, of increasing radii as much as possible, to ease the incline around the curve. But I would then need to twist the base, and probably as suggested by @DCB, use 2 separate bases to allow the necessary twist.  I’m assuming that if something like 6mm ply was screwed to secure cross-battens at the correct heights, that it would twist slightly to allow the required incline, which could be around 1.6-1.7%.

Because the boards I already have (a set of 7 laser cut ply/ply-braced which I bought secondhand ) being only 450mm wide, I have little option but to extend them by say 250mm. Although it means I wouldn’t have an already existing board surface to build on, it seems better to do this on the wall side, because:

1. Can secure to wall for added support

2. Can start with open-top level cross pieces, which themselves can be at slightly different heights

3. the ply board should have enough flex in it for the transition between level and incline

4. I can then twist the corner piece as described above, or keep it level as you suggest.

 

tbh, I won’t really know until I start by setting up the 1200x450 mm boards, but, as I’ve hinted before, not having access to the space at present, is keeping me focused on planning. (BTW, access to the property is middle next week, although I’ll be on other DIY duties for a while. So almost there!)

Ian

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by ITG
Added

[RobinofLoxley]

You are right 6mm ply will deform;  a lot of it is actually 5.5mm Chinese made and that is much softer. I have a lot of it as at one point in the pandemic I couldn't get proper 6 mm.

[Philou]

Ooh ooh, please sir, I'm in the middle of constructing my layout in ply (10mm but seems to vary from 8.5 to 9.5mm) and I've just laid the first bit of track bed on a double incline (a hogging curve) on a 1.0m curve using the 10mm ply. The inclines are gentler (about 1/90) but provided the packing pieces under the trackbed are securely fixed and then the trackbed screwed to the packing pieces, no problems at all, even the 10mm will flex enough. For the straight incline, I would just lay the battens at an angle and the trackbed to them - why complicate matters?

 

Thumbs up for the use of underlay - though in my case I'm using the green wood-fibre based one. I have used it before and no problem in getting track and ballast stuck to it using PVA/water/liquid soap mix.

 

If you want to have a look at today's effort on trackbed laying on a gradient and curve, go to the bottom of page 22, here:

 

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[ISW]

On 11/04/2023 at 09:01, ITG said:

Any other thoughts?

Ian

 

A little late with a reply, but here goes:

 

My 'acme' method to achieve the same thing was a single 90-degree curved baseboard element, bolted down horizontally at each end with a 'prop' part way round the corner to stop the ill effects of gravity. The baseboard was sufficiently flimsy in 'twist' (but strong in bending) that it simply accommodated both the gradient and the change of direction (by twisting slightly). The gradient baseboard is simple 6mm plywood with ~30mm high 'cheeks' of plywood attached to the sides with short timber blocks.

 

Here's one of my double-track 90-degree curved ramp corners:

 

And propped up thus. There is no 'connection' between the prop and the ramp baseboard. It's literally a 'finger' holding it up:

 

The gradient (ramps) tracks are supported off the framework that supports both 'levels' of my layout with cheap white pressed-steel angle brackets. In my case, these support brackets had to do double-duty supporting both the 'up' and 'down' ramps, as seen below:

 

Hope this helps.

 

Ian

[Michael Hodgson]

Some pretty impressive baseboard work there - certainly beyond my woodworking skills.

[ITG]

On 13/04/2023 at 21:16, Philou said:

Ooh ooh, please sir, I'm in the middle of constructing my layout in ply (10mm but seems to vary from 8.5 to 9.5mm) and I've just laid the first bit of track bed on a double incline (a hogging curve) on a 1.0m curve using the 10mm ply. The inclines are gentler (about 1/90) but provided the packing pieces under the trackbed are securely fixed and then the trackbed screwed to the packing pieces, no problems at all, even the 10mm will flex enough. For the straight incline, I would just lay the battens at an angle and the trackbed to them - why complicate matters?

 

Thumbs up for the use of underlay - though in my case I'm using the green wood-fibre based one. I have used it before and no problem in getting track and ballast stuck to it using PVA/water/liquid soap mix.

 

If you want to have a look at today's effort on trackbed laying on a gradient and curve, go to the bottom of page 22, here:

 

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Thanks. Encouraging to know that 10mm thickness still flexes sufficiently. 
I am still a little way from the practicalities of actually doing this task. We now have access to the refurbed property (not sleeping there yet as waiting for furniture items delivery). After a day struggling with assembling flat pack wardrobes which have warped whilst in storage, this baseboard task somehow doesn’t seem as daunting as it did!

Ian

[ITG]

12 hours ago, ISW said:

My 'acme' method to achieve the same thing was a single 90-degree curved baseboard element, bolted down horizontally at each end with a 'prop' part way round the corner to stop the ill effects of gravity. The baseboard was sufficiently flimsy in 'twist' (but strong in bending) that it simply accommodated both the gradient and the change of direction (by twisting slightly). The gradient baseboard is simple 6mm plywood with ~30mm high 'cheeks' of plywood attached to the sides with short timber blocks

Great thanks. A very similar scenario to what I’m planning. Although I think I will be able to provide vertical support under the incline board. I was wondering about using threaded rods (as used in many commercially produced helices) to achieve the incline and twist. After all, the 90 degree rising turn is in effect pretty similar to a quarter of a helix. I would still provide some batten strength as well, through which the rods would go.

Ian

[ISW]

4 hours ago, ITG said:

Great thanks. A very similar scenario to what I’m planning. Although I think I will be able to provide vertical support under the incline board. I was wondering about using threaded rods (as used in many commercially produced helices) to achieve the incline and twist. After all, the 90 degree rising turn is in effect pretty similar to a quarter of a helix. I would still provide some batten strength as well, through which the rods would go.

Ian

Ian,

 

Having space under the ramp for supports is certainly a bonus. As you can see from my photos, I'm using up all the space on my lower baseboards (storage sidings) so that wasn't an option for me.

 

Threaded rods would work, but pieces of timber are cheaper (but not 'adjustable'). If you need the adjustment, then how about short lengths of threaded rod in the top of a timber support? You are only in compression (I hope ...) and so it's easy to fit threaded rod (or bolts) into timber using cheap tee-nuts such as these from ScrewFix (other suppliers are available):

Ian