Western Region DMU set numbers

[TravisM]

When did the western region start putting their depot set numbers on the fronts of their DMU’s?  Starting with where they we’re allocated, London (L), then Bristol (B), Cardiff (C) and finally Plymouth Laira (P) and three numbers.

 

From what I remember of the mid 70’s, WR DMU’s were carrying them and formations seemed to be kept the same, though obviously the odd spare vehicle appeared from time to time.  I just wondered if it was started in the early 70’s as I’ve not seen any green WR DMU’s from the 60’s carrying set numbers.

[HillsideDepot]

My usual go-to site for DMU info is Railcar.co.uk and they have a page on set numbering, albeit the date for change from solebar plates to end numbers is a little vague. 

[Halvarras]

I would say definitely early 1970s, and all DMUs in the far South West had set numbers by 1974. However somewhere in my books there's a photo of green Class 121 'bubble car' W55029 with set number '129' (no prefix) top right corner of its yellow panel, which rather confuses the picture! I'll see if I can find it for a possible date. I do recall this one, W55024 and Class 120 W51576/59582/51590 surviving into 1968, possibly even 1969, but don't recall seeing this set number on '29 at the time. Sadly like many spotters back then I didn't pay much attention to DMUs once I'd scored all the 'locals' (by 1969) and this seems to be reflected in books on First Generation DMUs - for example I have Brian Morrison's 'British Rail DMUs & Diesel Railcars' here for a thumb-through and there is a dearth of photos of at least the WR types between roughly 1965 and 1975 - the problem with photographic evidence is that photos have to exist to provide evidence, although I can hardly complain since I was also guilty of ignoring them at the time.......

[MidlandRed]

Set numbers are referred to in the class 116 history thread pinned at the top of Prototype Questions. 
 

In the early 60s, WR set numbers at Tyseley were carried on stickers or boards located on the second man’s window (bottom right). There are lots of photos on Flickr of units with these or on railcar.co.uk. The Tyseley units continued to carry them after transfer of the depot to the LMR. As examples, class 122 units carried set numbers in the 1xx range, Tyseley class 128 DPUs carried numbers in the P1 to P4 range (units 55993-6). At a later date and certainly by the late 60s, these units carried numbers (carried on boards in the same place) in the TY05x series - the class 116 units at this stage had TY 3xx numbers. 
 

There are also references to set numbers on railcar.co.uk and photographs which show these. The numbers on the front below the driver’s windscreen appeared in the early 1970s I think. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by MidlandRed
Corrections

[br2975]

Western Region DMU sets, at least the Cl.116 sets were carrying set numbers in the late 1950s.

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They were carried on rectangular plates, on the power car solebars.

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I have one such plate, from a Plymouth district set.

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Cab front numbers started appearing (locally to me, in Cardiff) in greater numbers circa 1971.

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I don't recall any / many Canton sets with their set numbers on boards in the cab windows.

That's not to say their were odd examples.

Edited June 10, 2023 by br2975

[EddieK]

10 hours ago, jools1959 said:

When did the western region start putting their depot set numbers on the fronts of their DMU’s?  Starting with where they we’re allocated, London (L), then Bristol (B), Cardiff (C) and finally Plymouth Laira (P) and three numbers.

 

From what I remember of the mid 70’s, WR DMU’s were carrying them and formations seemed to be kept the same, though obviously the odd spare vehicle appeared from time to time.  I just wondered if it was started in the early 70’s as I’ve not seen any green WR DMU’s from the 60’s carrying set numbers.

I have just been on the railcar history website and used the "Advanced Search" feature in the "Images" section. I selected "Western Region" and a date range from 1970 onwards.

In 1970, there were a very few sets with a three digit set number, but no alphabetic prefix, while most sets still kept a plain yellow end with no set number.

An image dated April 1972 shows set C307 with that set number on the cab end, and the set looks to be recently overhauled (some multiple control jumpers looking clean and white). Images dated subsequently also show area-prefixed set numbers on cab ends, and the units do not necessarily look like they have recently been to works. This leads me to the conclusion that the WR area-prefixed set numbers appeared on DMU cab ends from Spring 1972, and that they were applied at depots and at works overhauls.

Hope that helps.

[Halvarras]

I've found a photo of Class 121 W55029 in green with set number '129' on its yellow panel, at Okehampton on 3rd April 1969 - 'Western Region in the 1960s' by Chris Heaps (Ian Allan, 1981), Plate 133 on Page 83. I'm sure there's another picture in another book but it's proving elusive, no doubt I'll find it while looking for something else!

I've also remembered the two Park Royal Class 103 2-car units which came down from Reading to work the Paignton - Kingswear branch January - December 1972, its final year under BR ownership. W50413/56168 and W50414/56169 carried set numbers P200 and P201 respectively, and AFAIK arrived for duty already so numbered. According to Railcar.co.uk these were the only '103s' to have set numbers applied, inferring that the two sets which remained at Reading did not receive them - perhaps not surprising as, having vehicles sequentially numbered ahead of the Paignton pair, those would have been L200/1 and the Devon units P202/3.

So W55029 remains something of a conundrum - it confirms that a DMU set numbering system* was coming as early as April 1969 but perhaps somebody 'jumped the gun' and got started prior to authorisation! Just goes to show that on the railways there's an exception to every rule (I have a Lima conversion which I numbered W55029 but it's set in 1967/8 so sourcing black set numbers in a bespoke font back in 1991 was neatly avoided 😁!)

 

*I'm referring to painted numbers on vehicle ends, which was the OP's question.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Halvarras
Spelllin

[Mike_Walker]

Having "endured" the WR Class 103s on a regular basis on the Marlow branch in 1970/71, none of the photos I took then or have seen elsewhere show set numbers when on the branch.  However, on the KDH Archive there is a picture of W50413 and W56168 carrying the set number 113 (no prefix) on the Windsor branch on 8 July 1971.  Hugh Longworth lists 50411/56166 as L111 in 1972 along with 50412/56167 as L112; 50413/56168 as P113 and 50414/56169 as P114.  I have my own photo of 50414/56169 running as P201 at Paignton on 30 September 1972.

 

So, it would appear these 4 sets got the 11x numbers sometime in the first half of 1971 which were still being carried when two were transferred to Plymouth early in 1972 then renumbered sometime after.

 

I have photos of the WR London Division 117s and 118s wearing unprefixed 4xx set numbers in 1970 but with prefixes by 1972.  The same applies to the Class 121 SPCs and their associated DETs 1xx and 2xx respectively with the last two digits corresponding to the last two digits of the running number.

[Halvarras]

2 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

Having "endured" the WR Class 103s on a regular basis on the Marlow branch in 1970/71, none of the photos I took then or have seen elsewhere show set numbers when on the branch.  However, on the KDH Archive there is a picture of W50413 and W56168 carrying the set number 113 (no prefix) on the Windsor branch on 8 July 1971.  Hugh Longworth lists 50411/56166 as L111 in 1972 along with 50412/56167 as L112; 50413/56168 as P113 and 50414/56169 as P114.  I have my own photo of 50414/56169 running as P201 at Paignton on 30 September 1972.

 

So, it would appear these 4 sets got the 11x numbers sometime in the first half of 1971 which were still being carried when two were transferred to Plymouth early in 1972 then renumbered sometime after.

 

I have photos of the WR London Division 117s and 118s wearing unprefixed 4xx set numbers in 1970 but with prefixes by 1972.  The same applies to the Class 121 SPCs and their associated DETs 1xx and 2xx respectively with the last two digits corresponding to the last two digits of the running number.

 

Many thanks for this, as it throws up more questions! If W55029 displayed '129' in 1969 - a set number it went on to keep - then at some point during 1971 it must have been realised that the set numbers for Class 122 SPCs 55011-4 were already carried by Class 103s, so renumbering of the latter was inevitable, and the '2xx' series was vacant. It could be argued that the Class 121/2s were '1xx' being single vehicles, Class 103 being 2-car became '2xx' and the Class 121/2 DTS vehicles' set numbers being 280-99, corresponding to their running numbers, sort of worked since in normal use they had to run with an SPC as a twin-set - or maybe that was just a happy coincidence! This 'logic' appeared to hold for the 3-car Class 116 units but fell apart after that!

Interestingly the WR was a short-frame-DMU-free zone until 1968 when three Class 101 centre trailers turned up to replace the three MU-through-wired Hawksworth coaches - the four Class 103s were next in, then five Class 101 triples from Scotland in 1974 (P800-4), which became the first of their type in blue/grey livery.

[melmerby]

Here's some for you, all at Snow Hill:

 

1972

 

1966

 

1967

 

 

[Hal Nail]

Here is a different blue one, 55025, without the letter in Feb 72. It had previously been in blue without a set number on the yellow end but the date just says approx 1971 and isn't precise.

 

It had transfered from Wales to the West Country in between so could some of these variations be depot specific?

 

Maybe it took them a while to come up with P is for Laira :)

 

https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/19203

Edited June 11, 2023 by Hal Nail

[bécasse]

I was an Oxford undergraduate 1964-1967 and often rode in the local 3-car DMUs, not least down to Appleford Halt at weekends to help Roye England with Pendon showings. It is possible that memory is playing tricks but I would have said that, at least towards the end of my time there, those DMUs had 3-digit set numbers displayed behind one of the front driving windows at each end. I certainly rode in them subsequent to 1967 but only very very occasionally, so I am reasonably certain that my memories of the numbers do come from my time at Oxford and before the sets were fitted with inter-carriage gangways.

[The Stationmaster]

I first saw a list of London Division set numbers c.1967/68 (I can't remember exactly which year it was but definitely one or other of those two years).  Note that does not mean that units were carrying the numbers but confirms the fact that set numbers existed at that time.   The numbers were applied to set ends later than that in the London Division, initially simply as three digits and later carrying the 'L' prefix.

[Downendian]

The Inter city railway society around 1976 published a full list of WR DMU set numbers in their monthly newsletter, I have it somewhere. I started spotting in 1974 and they were certainly in use by then.

Neil 

[Mike_Walker]

As mentioned earlier, Hugh Longworth's 'British Railways First Generation DMUs' contains lists of WR (and others) set numbers for 1965, 1972, 1976, 1980, 1985, 1988 and 1990.

[Halvarras]

1 hour ago, Downendian said:

The Inter city railway society around 1976 published a full list of WR DMU set numbers in their monthly newsletter, I have it somewhere. I started spotting in 1974 and they were certainly in use by then.

Neil 

 

The same appeared in the back pages of the RCTS Coaching Stock book, 1976 edition (correct to 31/12/75). It has proved useful over the years and a close look reveals some interesting combinations, for example set L440 comprised W50083 + 59543 + 51399 (116 + 101 + 117). Of the other two '101' trailers from 1968, W59538 was between '118' PCs W51311 & 51326 in set P469, and W59528 was spare (this one at least had originally arrived still in green livery, the other two unknown). Curiously Reading's two Class 128 DPUs, W55991/2, are listed but without set numbers (L1xx would have been expected......L191/2?) whereas the four Class 116 vehicles stripped of seats for parcels use alongside the DPUs, W50819/62/72/915, are identified as L340-3 respectively.

[br2975]

The first reference in my own 'spotting' notebooks to cab front set numbers is dated Saturday, 15th. January 1972 at Cardiff Queen Street where I recorded sets 301, 306, 317, 319, 328, 331, 338 and 344.

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On Thursday, 3rd. February, 1972 I travelled from Cardiff General to Aber Jcn. and noted the following set numbers durng the journey ; 304, 306, 308, 317, 328, 329, 338, 346, 347, 351, 

 

[Mike_Walker]

Going through my collection for something else I came across another variation not listed by Longworth.  Set L360 comprising Class 116 DMBS W50083 and Class 121 DTS W56285 at Marlow on 22 September 1972.

 

W50083 was a long time unique member of the London Division fleet and over the ears appeared in many different 2 and 3 car sets.