What would be the life expectancy for a card building?

[Nearholmer]

Out of interest, what does any  temperature within a wider range, say 0 to 40 centigrade, do that degrades card and paper (provided absolute humidity isn’t high)?

 

I ask, because my perception is that the answer is “no great harm”, bilirubin I’m here to learn.

[MyRule1]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Out of interest, what does any  temperature within a wider range, say 0 to 40 centigrade, do that degrades card and paper (provided absolute humidity isn’t high)?

 

I ask, because my perception is that the answer is “no great harm”, bilirubin I’m here to learn.

I am by no means an expert and just readcas many sources that can be trusted as possible and the collate the information.

 

As far as I can infer the temperature itself is not the issue it's how it advances or inhibits other threats to the paper/card as you mention one of these is humidity. Others include chemical changes and insect activity.

 

As to the longevity of books although seemingly OK many books will have minor damage such as foxing, weakened binding glue, rusting staples etc.

[Chubber]

Fading... Best quality paper (acid free hot pressed watercolour sheet) with Epson  Durabrite ink protected by matt/satin UV protective spray of the sort designed to protect pastel artwork. 

 

Structural integrity.... Use a quality P.V.A., e.g. Evostik Resin W, seal raw edges of cut card, pre-glue (smear with thinned P.V.A.) joints and use quality stick adhesives. Design smart, I.e. an applied chimney can be knocked off but not if is an appropriate piece of softwood  that penetrates the roofline. Use clearglaze  adhesive to fasten acrylic window sheet as it retains a degree of flexibility. Fit floors for bracing.

 

These are the standards I applied to the construction of a small building  for the Green  Howard's Museum diorama of the Battle of  Waterloo in Winchester,  years ago and it's still  there. I'd suggest that 50 years life is wholly achievable. 

 

Doug 

 

 

 

 

[Pacific231G]

On 11/06/2023 at 18:52, VIA185 said:

From memory, Madder Valley is kept in a fairly low-light environment. It's looked after by museum people who know what they are doing. It's also so old that it's likely the card buildings were 'pickled' in shellac, which will keep any moisture out - if any was present. I doubt that many of us can treat our models in the same way or keep them in a similar environment. My O gauge 'Railway Children' layout lives in a shed. Initially it wasn't insulated and although the buildings are removable, I left them in place over a winter and had to re-roof the station and goods shed because they warped. The shed is now insulated but I bring the buildings indoors and keep them in a centrally-heated house during winter. On my 'OO' layout which has two skylights above it, I have had some fading of buildings, particularly those with home-printed (inkjet) building papers. I have also had the windows of my Bachmann Blue Pullman turn white due to exposure to too much strong sunlight. We learn by our mistakes. (CJL)

Can you get UV resistant overlays for your skylights?

The lighting levels on the Madder Valley have recently been increased (which makes it look far better) but the lights are (and have been for some time) LEDs that shouldn't emit significant UV. The room that the MVR is kept in (as with the Dartmoor and Valley scenes at Pendon) also has no natural light so no sunlight pouring in UV  and all the scenes are proteced by glass windows so atmospheric pollution is also very low.  John Ahern did use shellac for his card buildings but I need to find out whether the current Pendon modellers use it or anything equivalent- modern cardstock for art may be less prone to absorbing moisture than older types- especially the manilla envelopes, file card and other office supplies that were probably all that John Ahern (who was an insurance broker) could get hold of during the war and the austerity period that followed

I believe that LED lighting is increasingly used by museums and galleries though many tradiitonal galleries and museums were designed to have plenty of natural light. I don't know if they now use UV filtering glass. 

[Nearholmer]

The big London museums seem to use large blinds over their windows to cut out a very high percentage of the natural light. I was in the science museum the other day, and in a lot of areas it’s frankly annoyingly dark! The British Museum doesn’t feel dark, but the lighting is extremely carefully controlled.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Pacific231G]

On 20/07/2023 at 07:57, Nearholmer said:

The big London museums seem to use large blinds over their windows to cut out a very high percentage of the natural light. I was in the science museum the other day, and in a lot of areas it’s frankly annoyingly dark! The British Museum doesn’t feel dark, but the lighting is extremely carefully controlled.

It's the balance all museum curators have to make between presentation and conservation. On lighting, the arrival of LEDs should make that far easier but relighting everything is likely to be an expensive business especially if you've always largely relied on natural (exhibit fading) light.   Not just lighting but that balance Is likely to be a particular problem for the Science Museum (especially the NRM) as far more of their exhibits need to function to be meaningful, and so suffer wear and tear,  than in a typical museum or gallery.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Pacific231G

[F2Andy]

On 11/06/2023 at 15:19, Nearholmer said:

I should have mentioned this fine piece of model-making when I was banging on about the virtues of painted wood.

 

It was made c1975-1981BC.

 

 

It also includes linen, plaster, and copper wire apparently. Possibly not cardboard though.

 

 

I guess kept in a dark, dry environment?

[Nearholmer]

Indeed.

 

So, the obvious answer for the modeller looking to get longevity from their card models is to enlist thousands of slaves, and build a huge pyramid in which to keep them, while keeping fingers crossed for suitable climate change (the Nile Valley didn’t have such a dry climate as today four thousand years ago).

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Indeed.

 

So, the obvious answer for the modeller looking to get longevity from their card models is to enlist thousands of slaves, and build a huge pyramid in which to keep them, while keeping fingers crossed for suitable climate change (the Nile Valley didn’t have such a dry climate as today four thousand years ago).

Except that the pyramids weren't built by slaves (so forget the scenes of Israelite slaves in Cecil B de Mille's Exodus) but by paid workers, mostly poor farmers who supplemented their income by work on the pyramids during the wet season when their fields were flooded. It was the ancient Greek historian, Herodotus in the 5th Century BCE, who claimed that the pyramids were built 2000 years ealier with the labour of 100,000 slaves.

However, in the past fifteen or so years, archaeologists have found considerable evidence of a specially constructed village where the workforce of about 10, 000, who worked in three month shifts, were housed in long dormitories. Food remains show evidence that they were well fed with meat and bread while those who died while engaged in the work received simple but honoured burials complete with beer and bread for their journey close to the sacred sites.

There were slaves in ancient Egypt but they didn't get to build the pyramids.

[Nearholmer]

I didn’t know that.

 

so, enlist a lot of subsistence farmers.

[fulton]

2 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Except that the pyramids weren't built by slaves (so forget the scenes of Israelite slaves in Cecil B de Mille's Exodus) but by paid workers, mostly poor farmers who supplemented their income by work on the pyramids during the wet season when their fields were flooded.

Your comments are part of this modern trend to apply facts, to popular and widely held knowledge, next thing you will be telling us Britain did not win WW2 all by itself. (THIS IS A TONGUE IN CHEEK COMMENT, before I get a massive backlash,I can think of allsorts of popular myths that if the facts are shown, could result in very angry responces as the myths are so strongly belived.)

Edited August 24, 2023 by fulton
Correction

[BachelorBoy]

On 18/06/2023 at 19:47, MyRule1 said:

I have just written a procedure regarding archives preservation for a museum I am involved with I am surprised that any card models survive, and the procedure does not include such items as cats sitting on buildings.

 

The worst issues are light, humidity and temperature. With recommended humidity being 45% - 55% and temperature between 16 and 21 degrees C. After writing that I am buying a temperature and humidity monitor for my new model room. Basic models are fairly inexpensive.

 Are there any good websites, articles, or books you'd recommend on this subject, please?

[BachelorBoy]

I have some 80- to 90-year-old books that were kept in the tropics for some decades. 

 

Insects have nibbled them.

 

Is that a problem for cardboard too in hot countries? Or do the insects only like paper because it is a delicacy compared to cardboard?

 

Thanks 

[BR60103]

I don't know about insects, but I have a number of buildings that a cat has nibbled. And some plastic bits as well.

 

[Hibelroad]

I think I’ve only seen one reference to shellac here but it is a good surface treatment for card, it keeps moisture out and makes the cut edge more crisp. It is essentially french polish so just buy a bottle from a diy shop and brush it on both sides. Brushes can be cleaned in meths. 

[MyRule1]

9 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 Are there any good websites, articles, or books you'd recommend on this subject, please?

My go to sites for standards and information tend to be:

 

British Museum 

British Library

The National Archives

Archives and Records Association ( https://www.archives.org.uk/ )

 

They all have downloadable and free, resources.

 

As I am a volunteer museum curator I have access to a various other sources, included a network of others who can often help.

 

As to books as they are very specialised, and people buy them on expenses, they tend to be extremely expensive. For example https://www.routledge.com/Conservation-of-Books/Bainbridge/p/book/9780367754907 at £190 although the ebook is only £38

 

 

 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Judging from some of my old card buildings, the only real impact of time is fading.

Structural integrity seems fine, providing they are sufficiently braced internally. 

[Pacific231G]

On 24/08/2023 at 21:42, fulton said:

Your comments are part of this modern trend to apply facts, to popular and widely held knowledge, next thing you will be telling us Britain did not win WW2 all by itself. (THIS IS A TONGUE IN CHEEK COMMENT, before I get a massive backlash,I can think of allsorts of popular myths that if the facts are shown, could result in very angry responces as the myths are so strongly belived.)

Well indeed and I know from studying the internet that it wasn't Britain that won WW2 all on its own but America. Britain joined in very late and there was almost no involvement from Canada. It's all on the web so it must be true. 

Even here I've learnt that H0 is a scale invented by foreigners, that those using P4 are morally superior to other modellers, and that the GWR wasn't the very best of Britain's railways (actually I know that's not  true, not least because the GWR could do with ten wheels what lesser railways needed twelve for)

[Michael Hodgson]

On 20/07/2023 at 07:57, Nearholmer said:

The big London museums seem to use large blinds over their windows to cut out a very high percentage of the natural light. I was in the science museum the other day, and in a lot of areas it’s frankly annoyingly dark! The British Museum doesn’t feel dark, but the lighting is extremely carefully controlled.

 

Perhaps somebody's nicked their blinds ?

[Nick Lawson]

On 24/08/2023 at 20:59, Nearholmer said:

so, enlist a lot of subsistence farmers.

Perhaps starting a trend of Southern English, railway modelling incomers to the Hebrides, taking advantage of both the available space for really big sheds and subsidies from the Scottish Government to the crofting community, to encourage the development of their modelling skills to provide a service to these incomers?

 

 

 

[Titan]

Well I suppose one answer is "longer than RAAC"...

 

I'll get my coat.