Fleischmann turntable problems

[Guinotmac]

I have a Fleischmann turntable which I bought with a layout.  From research, it appears to be Model No. 665201 which offers a 3 rail option.

 

My layour is DCC.

 

I powered the deck with track power via the two yellow wires.  The 3 wire set from the switch (DC power) turns the table in both directions without any problems.  There is a "spare" single white wire which I think powers the third rail if one has a 3 rail system (Marklin or the like)

 

The 2 problems I have are - a)  Most of the connecting tracks from the table do not appear to be getting power fed from the deck and

                                                 b)   Do I need to install a polarity reversing device - I appear to get a short when the loco tries to exit the turntable onto the layout.  I'd assumed the turntable itself took care of polarity .............

 

From the German instructions, it appears one can choose which end of the deck feeds power to the link rails - "hut end" or "non hut end" - does this matter ?

 

Maybe somone on here can help out.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Guinotmac

[cypherman]

On 22/06/2023 at 10:18, Guinotmac said:

I have a Fleischmann turntable which I bought with a layout.  From research, it appears to be Model No. 665201 which offers a 3 rail option.

 

My layour is DCC.

 

I powered the deck with track power via the two yellow wires.  The 3 wire set from the switch (DC power) turns the table in both directions without any problems.  There is a "spare" single white wire which I think powers the third rail if one has a 3 rail system (Marklin or the like)

 

The 2 problems I have are - a)  Most of the connecting tracks from the table do not appear to be getting power fed from the deck and

                                                 b)   Do I need to install a polarity reversing device - I appear to get a short when the loco tries to exit the turntable onto the layout.  I'd assumed the turntable itself took care of polarity .............

 

From the German instructions, it appears one can choose which end of the deck feeds power to the link rails - "hut end" or "non hut end" - does this matter ?

 

Maybe somone on here can help out.

This is a picture of the same Fleischmann turntable I have.  As you assumed  the turntable itself took care of polarity. If your turntable has the same off ramps as mine make sure that they are pushed fully into their mounting points. also make sure that the contacts between the bridge and the off ramps are clean and touching. 

[Brit70053]

I have a similar Fleischmann turntable(TT), though I'm not sure of the Catalogue number and know nothing of the three rail element.

Initially I did not fully understand the current flows and functionality regarding polarity, but eventually found the following :-

 

a)   You need to check that the 4 sprung contacts on  the TT Deck track ends are not distorted , damaged or missing. These need to be 'true' to make contact with the outlet tracks when you 'park' the deck in order to pass the current from deck to outlet track.

 

Remove outlet tracks or 'blanks' from the well at any position to enable the deck to be removed and examined.

 

b)   On my example, when the deck rotates it will pass a point *halfway round the circumference where polarity is reversed, so I found it necessary to fit a Double Poll Double Throw (DPDT) switch to have control over polarity. This  may be why you are experiencing 'shorts' when a loco has been turned and the polarity has become opposite to that of the running line onto which it is exiting the TT.

* This halfway point may not be obvious and depends on the original orientation of the TT Deck when first installed.

 

Regarding the 'Hut' position on the rotary switch, this enables a loco to be parked on the TT Deck while other models on the running lines are operated from the same controller power feed if desired. So, if you wish to drive a loco on or off the TT, the Hut or No Hut switch is selected for the Deck outlet to the running line depending on which end of the deck is connecting.  Changing the rotary switch then isolates the loco on the TT .

 

Hope this helps,

 

Regards, 

 

                  John

Edited June 24, 2023 by Brit70053
Spelling Correction

[Guinotmac]

Many thanks for your replies you two. 

 

Cypherman, I'll re-check the connections at the track ends but I've cleaned both the rail tabs and "inverted v" shaped wipers attached to the bridge so everything is clean.  As for touching - I can't guarantee that because I can't see under there !!  I could maybe try using a mirror - I'll do that.

 

Regarding polarity, I've read elsewhere, and indeed Brit 70053 in the post following yours, it is suggested that a DPDT switch is installed in the circuit.  There wasn't one when I bought the layout and, as you say,  I'd have thought, at the price of these things, polarity change would be built in.

[Guinotmac]

John (Brit 70053), thank you for your input. 

 

Am I to understand from your comments about polarity, that your turntable wasn't actually reversing polarity at the mid point ?  You say "so I found it necessary to fit a DPDT switch to have control over polarity" or was it simply that the factory installed half-way point on the turntable didn't match your positioning of the unit on your layout ?  I hadn't thought of that possibility ........

 

Regarding the 3 rail option, AFAIK, it was designed for use with the Marklin stud contact system.  With that system, both yellow bridge feed wires are connected to one side of the track power and the "spare" white wire I mentioned is connected to the other.  I'm guessing the bridge studs are an "accessory" because my bridge is a simple 2 rail bridge so the "spare" white wire is just ignored - it doesn't do anything (hopefully....).

 

Regarding contact between the "v" shaped bridge wipers and the rail stubs on the outlet tracks - see my previous post - i.e they are clean and true although obviously not making proper contact for some reason ..........................

 

Having looked again at my "switch", mine doesn't have the "hut/non hut" option for power - this must have been an update for a later model turntable.  My switch is exactly as that shown in Cypherman's post above - just the directional arrows imprinted.

 

I'll check the contacts between bridge and outlet tracks again but did wonder if putting a blob of solder on the outlet track stubs might create a more positive contact .............

Edited June 25, 2023 by Guinotmac

[Brit70053]

Hi Guinotmac,

 

                            A quick reply for now as I won't have access to my layout / turntable until the end of next week due to domestic priorities.

                            My turntable as received new and ready assembled had three inlet tracks at one point of the circumference and one opposite the centre one of these three, so as far as I know the 'polarity reversal' point was as set at the factory, but is not at the mid rotation position between these outlet tracks.  I'm not sure where I read/ learned that a DPDT switch would be needed, but I would have problems without it.

                            The rotation switch on my model does indicate the end of the deck at which the hut is positioned, so I agree my model may be a later version than yours. The arrows simply indicate the direction of travel of the deck i.e. clockwise or anti clockwise.

 

                             Thinking about it further, I'm fairly sure the white wire on the Red/Yellow/ White wire 'ribbon' does have a function on a two rail system. I cannot think that this is 'redundant' on my two rail analogue layout.  I'll try to get a look at this when I can if you haven't got this sorted before I can get to my turntable.

 

                              Unfortunately I loaned my instruction leaflet to a friend some while ago and have no realistic expectation of seeing it again through no fault of theirs.  

 

                             Hope you can progress/ resolve your problem in the meantime.

 

                              Regards,

 

                                             John

 

Edit :  Re reading your original post I think I've missed a point or two you've made quite clear and I am making errors trying to recall the wiring from memory alone. I'll not post further until I've had a chance to look at my turntable. Sorry for any confusion caused.

                                                                              John

 

                                               

Edited June 25, 2023 by Brit70053
Delete probably incorrect information.

[GWR-fan]

 

 

While DCC installation,  these videos may assist you.

 

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Here is the Fleischmann Turntable manual. 

https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/media/downloads/FM_Turntable.pdf

https://www.usermanuals.au/fleischmann/6152-h0/manual?p=5

Page 5 of the second link has the English written instructions

 

[Guinotmac]

Thanks for your input both of you - I have indeed seen those videos GWR Fan and yes, that handbook too Cypherman but many thanks for your pointers all the same ...........

 

Both relate to what is I suspect, a later model of the turntable.  It looks virtually the same - the only difference I've spotted (apart from that "extra" wire) is the inlay between the rails on the bridge.  The one you've shown (Model No. 6152) has a removable centre piece to access the fixing screw and a further removable plate to access the oiling points for the motor.

 

Mine has 2 long metal plates, each half the length of the bridge between the rails, held in place by a central screw.  In addition, it has the extra white wire coming from the bridge which, as I said, is to feed power to the centre stud contacts used by Marklin on their 3 rail system.

 

To clarify - my available wires are as follows:

 

                From the switch to the turntable                      a triple wire ribbon - 1 red, 1 yellow, 1 grey (presumably for the motor, the aligning system and, I thought, polarity change.

                From the switch to separate power supply:   2 wires taking 12v DC power to the turntable itself - 1 black, 1 white.

                From the bridge (deck):                                      3 wires - 2 yellow in ribbon, 1 white.  The 2 yellow wires feed track power to the bridge - 1 + and the other -.  The "extra" white wire is not used on a 2 rail system.  Had it been 3 rail, then both yellow wires would have been connected to + and the white (centre rail) connected to the -.

 

I experimented with a blob of solder on the rail ends of a "spare" outlet track to try for a more positive contact between the bridge wipers and outlet rails - it worked !!!

 

I proceeded to add a blob of solder to each of the outlet tracks I'll use and now have power fed to each one from the bridge - Problem 1 controlled (for now at least).

 

I still don't get a polarity change although I'd have thought this was one of the main factors with turntables and one at this price should surely have a built-in system for doing so.  I wonder, not being totally au-fait with electrickery, could this be because the layout is DCC but the turntable was originally designed for DC operation .....???   The above video doesn't actually explain WHY he's using a DPDT switch.

 

I'll do some testing to see if, during a complete revolution, polarity changes anywhere.  If not, then I'll have to add a DPDT switch to the circuit - and remember to throw it at the half-way stage ...... !!!

 

I'm grateful for all your help guys.

 

Cheers

 

Peter

 

                  

[cypherman]

1 hour ago, Guinotmac said:

Thanks for your input both of you - I have indeed seen those videos GWR Fan and yes, that handbook too Cypherman but many thanks for your pointers all the same ...........

 

Both relate to what is I suspect, a later model of the turntable.  It looks virtually the same - the only difference I've spotted (apart from that "extra" wire) is the inlay between the rails on the bridge.  The one you've shown (Model No. 6152) has a removable centre piece to access the fixing screw and a further removable plate to access the oiling points for the motor.

 

Mine has 2 long metal plates, each half the length of the bridge between the rails, held in place by a central screw.  In addition, it has the extra white wire coming from the bridge which, as I said, is to feed power to the centre stud contacts used by Marklin on their 3 rail system.

 

To clarify - my available wires are as follows:

 

                From the switch to the turntable                      a triple wire ribbon - 1 red, 1 yellow, 1 grey (presumably for the motor, the aligning system and, I thought, polarity change.

                From the switch to separate power supply:   2 wires taking 12v DC power to the turntable itself - 1 black, 1 white.

                From the bridge (deck):                                      3 wires - 2 yellow in ribbon, 1 white.  The 2 yellow wires feed track power to the bridge - 1 + and the other -.  The "extra" white wire is not used on a 2 rail system.  Had it been 3 rail, then both yellow wires would have been connected to + and the white (centre rail) connected to the -.

 

I experimented with a blob of solder on the rail ends of a "spare" outlet track to try for a more positive contact between the bridge wipers and outlet rails - it worked !!!

 

I proceeded to add a blob of solder to each of the outlet tracks I'll use and now have power fed to each one from the bridge - Problem 1 controlled (for now at least).

 

I still don't get a polarity change although I'd have thought this was one of the main factors with turntables and one at this price should surely have a built-in system for doing so.  I wonder, not being totally au-fait with electrickery, could this be because the layout is DCC but the turntable was originally designed for DC operation .....???   The above video doesn't actually explain WHY he's using a DPDT switch.

 

I'll do some testing to see if, during a complete revolution, polarity changes anywhere.  If not, then I'll have to add a DPDT switch to the circuit - and remember to throw it at the half-way stage ...... !!!

 

I'm grateful for all your help guys.

 

Cheers

 

Peter

 

                  

Hi again. I have just had a thought about the polarity change. If it is a 3 rail version of the turntable you have there would not be a change. As far as I understand these things the polarity change was to stop the bridge shorting out when it did a 180 degree turn where the positive rail would then be opposite the negative rail. But this is immaterial on a 3 rail set up as there is only one powered rail that will always be the middle rail. This is possibly why you are having this problem.

[kevinlms]

Do you have a multimeter? One set on the ohms range will soon tell you if the 2 yellow wires are shorted together. If each one goes to a separate rail, then you have no problem. That is what the diagram implies - it shows the two yellows connected to the same power supply terminals, but you don't need to do that.

However, the AC version has no need to provide for reversing half way around, so I suspect that you are out of luck and will have to use a separate DPDT switch.

 

The manual for the AC version (which is what you have - it's designed for AC, not that it has options for AC, a difference) of the turntable can be found here - page 4 is in English.

 

https://www.fleischmann.de/static/frontend/Casisoft/Fleischmann/en_GB/doc/AN/2/DE/80665201920.pdf

Edited June 27, 2023 by kevinlms
More info

[Guinotmac]

Thanks both - you're absolutely correct in that the 3 rail version wouldn't require a polarity change !  Why didn't I realise that .......????

 

I had read that manual kevinlms - it just didn't register that the turntable was for AC operation - I just assumed that was an option (and you're dead right in that "designed for" and "option for" have different meanings ......................I simply didn't pick up on it).

 

Off to find a suitable DPDT switch now - should have one "in a box" somewhere.  If I can't find it, then I'm sure the smiley arrow company can provide one within a couple of days - even here in France.................