Constant fails

[Ripstitch]

Hi, I'm new to the hobby as of this February.  I chose  to go with dcc. I'm having problems with locos needing repair. Luckily I have a local model shop who do repairs but it is frustrating to always to have a loco in for fixing. 

The problems have been a blown decoder,loose wires needing resoldering. Sometimes the same loco back in, in the same week. All in all maybe 6 repairs. 

The track runs well ,not enough care was taken originally and I would take much greater care now but locos run and then one doesn't. The frustration is due to not understanding what's going on. YouTube  has been very useful but hasn't given me the answer.

My question is, is this degree of fails normal ,are dcc locos very fragile. Is dc better for running locos?

I'm not roughly handling them, they cost too much for that, the track isn't shorting so is this normal or am I just in a run of bad luck. 

I would appreciate any thoughts or advice. 

 

[Vecchio]

Dcc doesn't run 'worse' than DC, a loco that runs well on DC will run well on DCC. Sometimes even better, as DCC always has the full voltage on the track, no matter which speed the loco is running. DCC also gives you the possibility to use energy storage devices (stay alive) which makes them even more robust if it comes to contact problems between loco and track. This is of course depending on which decoders you use. The very basic ones will probably not give you such an option. 

Another point is the motor regulation. Different motors may need different set-up. Some newer systems have self adjusting features. This is probably a point were an experienced trader may be of help. 

What may help help is to join a club, there will always be some 'gurus' who may help you with your problems (and they do it for free).

 

I personally switched to DCC in 2005 and I would never go back to DC. The advantages of DCC are more than one loco can be controlled on the same track (no sectionalisation necessary), smooth control, best slow speed behaviour, acceleration and braking inertia adjustable, top speed adjustable to a realistic speed, various light functions (depending on decoder), automatic breaking or shuttle mode (ABC etc), electromagnetic  uncoupling, moving pantographs and last but not least sound functions (just to name a selection).

[andyman7]

It's hard to give a definitive answer. There's no doubt that running DCC adds a layer of technical complexity that means more can go wrong - the old fashioned Lima, Hornby, Bachmann pre-2000 models running on 12v DC could take all sorts of current overloads and short circuits without failing, and had very little in the way of separate fitted detail to fall off; whereas the detail, electronics and components in modern locos are more sensitive, and adding a decoder further adds to this.

Having said that, when track is laid well and rough handling avoided then modern stuff (DCC and DC) is reliable and certainly runs a lot more smoothly than the models of 25 years ago.
I would be useful if you could share some specific instances of where things have gone wrong to be able to offer more advice

[Harlequin]

That degree of failure is not normal, no.

 

What command station are you using? And what make(s) are the decoders?

 

What locos are you running?

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Harlequin

[RobinofLoxley]

Every case is individual. You dont say if the stock is from new or acquired on the second hand market. Some models and indeed whole brands have had specific issues.

 

I am still in the process of switching to DCC although the layout is, some of the stock is unconverted. But all of it runs better on DCC; I have control over the speed range not just belting round at 100% on DC.

 

As Phil says, make of decoder is important, if you bought locos 'fitted' you may need to change some. I use Zimo, and while I may have blown a decoder due to my own mistakes, actually running the locos is brilliant.

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

.... not just belting round at 100% on DC.

 

What were you using as a DC controller - an ON / OFF switch?

 

My homemade DC controllers contain Chinese voltage regulator units; bought from Aliexpress for - literally - pence! I have control over the speed range - much better than a variable resistance controller.

 

DCC may have much going for it - but please don't try and tar all DC controllers with the same useless brush!

 

CJI.

[Ripstitch]

Thanks to you all. The two problematic locos are ebay buys which maybe coincidence, it would be easy to say ah well there you have it.  .

I'm using the Bachmann e z controller, I didn't want to spend too much (although of course I did) .

As to decoders I know one is an 8 pin  one a Bachmann, the others were either on board or fitted at my local model shop. I only have 6 locos in all. Two were Dapol factory fitted

In all cases it was either one day they were fine, next morning quite dead or they simply stopped working while being run. No derails or shorts.

I think the suggestion of a model railway club is the answer. I do like using dcc and am pleased that you say that it's not to do with that.

I have decided to buy future locos from my local model shop which I'm very grateful for. It may not be the cause of the fails but it would be one variable less.

 Thanks for your replies...

 

[woodyfox]

Sorry to hear of your woes! 

I have just gone to DCC in N gauge and I have fitted sound into tiny spaces etc.... with varying success. You shoukd expect some failures on your journey but all you can do is mitigate against it by laying good quality track laid on a solid flat foundation, over engineer the wiring and check and recheck for solid connections, be prepared to spend upfront on quality items - buy the best decoders you can afford and a decent quality DCC system likewise. Run in motor units on DC if possible before converting. Take your time with DCC fitting and research each project prior to starting to build up your confidence. 

DCC is more vulnerable to 'rough' current supply to microchips with tiny circuits so it's important to try to do everything from the ground upwards to maintain as higher quality of current supply as possible. 

Good luck and persevere. 

Cheers 

Stu 

[ITG]

I am another who started in DCC about 4 years ago, after a 50 year break! Previous experience all those years ago was obviously DC.

I too am still learning, but certainly haven’t suffered fails such as you describe.  A couple of mechanical issues, but not DCC itself. I would urge to gradually increase your knowledge, as that will then increase your confidence in dealing with any hiccups. As others have said, much of the ‘basics’ comes from having a flat surface, well laid track and over-engineered track feed and accessory wiring. These basics will eradicate many of the potential fails.

Those sudden fails you describe are unusual, so I hope you get to the bottom of them. Knowing exactly what decoders and their settings may help to solicit more responses on here, as would posting this kind of question in the DCC section, as that is where many helpful experts lurk. Believe me, I’ve needed them!

[rogerdee]

If you can afford it I would get a better dcc controller,I used a ez controller for n gauge and it was lethal for my locos, it killed a few decoders and a couple of motors. I changed to nice and everything is fine now.

 

[Damo666]

4 hours ago, rogerdee said:

If you can afford it I would get a better dcc controller,I used a ez controller for n gauge and it was lethal for my locos, it killed a few decoders and a couple of motors. I changed to nice and everything is fine now.

 

@Ripstitch I think Rogerdee meant to say he changed to 'NCE' or NCE PowerCab. I'm guessing the autocorrect gremlin made a visit.

[DCB]

12 hours ago, Ripstitch said:

Thanks to you all. The two problematic locos are ebay buys which maybe coincidence, it would be easy to say ah well there you have it.  .

You don't give any indication of the size of the layout, sounds like 00.       It does sound as if putting the offending locos back on eBay might be the answer.  You can't trust eBay sellers, I bought a T9 as a non runner and it ran, most annoying.   Even so repeated failures sort of points to rough handling?    Do you get lots of derailments?   Or handle the stock a lot?   I try to leave my stock on the rails as much  I can, that  stops ladders, handrails, wiring connections and all the myriad bits of add on detail going awol.   Post 2000 ish locos with "scale" flanges and under scale treads are much more prone to derailing than older stuff. I have a Dapol Mogul loco and it needed a lot of work to get it to stay on the tracks from new.

It might be worth joining a club, or seeing if anyone on this forum lives near you and can pop round and lend a hand.  I think a lot of us enjoy fault finding.  Mind you some of us end up doing more fault finding than running trains.  Actually if you don't like fault finding you may have chosen the wrong hobby.

 

 

[The Johnster]

15 hours ago, Ripstitch said:

The track runs well ,not enough care was taken originally and I would take much greater care now but locos run and then one doesn't.

 

I’m not the person to advise you on DCC matters, never having used it; I have no objection to it and think it’s a good idea but can’t afford it!  But I reckon your troubles are at least partly caused by your tracklaying if ‘not enough care was taken originally’.  Reliable smooth running with good slow speed control depends primarily on three things; level baseboards (especially at the joins), track laid flat to clean boards and smoothly between each adjoining piece, (especially at turnouts), and clean railheads, wheels, and pickups, and this applies irrespective of the control system used.  
 

Secondary issues may be present if, for example, you are running locos on the limit of the maker’s minimum radius curve specification.  The loco will be close to the limits of axle and gear sideplay, motion clearance, and bogie clearance; everything has to be favourable for reliable running.  Curved insulfrog turnouts have long dead sections that may compromise reliable pickup as well.  A boon of DCC is that pickup issues can be ameliorated with stayalives, but it is clearly better to have them but not to need them than to need them and not have them.  I wish somebody would devise one for DC.. 
 

Relay the track with greater care if you can, get rid of any plastic wheelsets (they spread crud all over the place, as do traction tyres), give everything a good clean (check out threads on this subject, there’s more to it than might first appear and everybody has their own routine), clean crud out of flangeways, adjust pickups to bear firmly but freely on the wheels throughout the full range of their sideplay, check wire connections, both to controller and track and inside locos, and establish a common back-to-back dimension for all locos and stock; 14.5mm is a good starting point for this and will work well with all setrack and flexi RTP systems.  
 

Good luck and let us know how you get on.  Welcome to the insanity hobby, and the complete insanity forums, btw!

 

[Hal Nail]

The people who supplied my NCE also recommended a (cheap) circuit breaker to protect everything if there is a short. I don't know of that's specific to NCE or all DCC.

 

Also probably worth asking this in the dcc section.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Hal Nail

[DCB]

3 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

The people who supplied my NCE also recommended a (cheap) circuit breaker to protect everything if there is a short. I don't know of that's specific to NCE or all DCC.

 

Also probably worth asking this in the dcc section.

Which circuit breaker?   Sounds useful, 1 per power area /' section sounds good.

[ISW]

10 hours ago, DCB said:

Which circuit breaker?   Sounds useful, 1 per power area /' section sounds good.

Yep, that's what I did. I have 2 on my Lower Level and 6 on the Upper Level, as shown below:

 

They are all MERG kits, which I had to build from a kit of parts. They are very useful and let me know (buzzer) when I cause a short, but allows the 'rest' of the layout to keep operating.

 

The photo may look complicated, but it's just 6 DCC power districts, each one with its own 'self-resetting' circuit breaker.

 

Ian

 

[ISW]

On 04/07/2023 at 10:55, Ripstitch said:

My question is, is this degree of fails normal ,are dcc locos very fragile. Is dc better for running locos?

I'm not roughly handling them, they cost too much for that, the track isn't shorting so is this normal or am I just in a run of bad luck. 

I would appreciate any thoughts or advice. 

 

I was new to the hobby 5-years ago, although I'd bought a lot of rolling stock back in 1980/81 that was still in boxes.

 

Here's what I did:

1. Work up, step-by-step. I started by buying a (new) NCE PowerCAB as my controller and some simple decoders from Hattons. I hard wired an old Lima Deltic to DCC and laid a simple oval of track on the floor. It was great to see the loco moving under DCC power. My next 'step' was to build a simple crossover to test out the MegaPoints Controllers I planned to use to operate the turnouts. Many lessons were learnt ...
2. Make a plan. I drew up my entire layout design before I built anything (I used the 3rdPlanIt software for the track layout, SketchUp for the baseboards, and Xara Designer Pro X10 for overall/schematics). This allows you to make mistakes without any loss of time or money. You get to 'build' the layout in drawings, tweaking where necessary, before you commit to spending any cash.
3. Test as you go. When I got around to building my layout I used a simple electrical tester to check for power, continuity, and an absence of short-circuits on each 'part / element' as I built it (I use several separate baseboards bolted together, so could test each one individually).

Yes, I made some mistakes. I burnt out a decoder because I'd added more pickups to a loco, but these 'jammed' the motor wheels and, as a result, the motor drew too much current. Oops. I also burnt out a MegaPoints 12servo board because I put 12v DC onto the network cable! However, overall things went 'as they should'.

 

I've done just about everything 'on the cheap', with all my locos (except my old Lima ones from 1980) bought secondhand off TheBay or from SwapMeets and train fairs. All my decoders are Hattons or Rails 'own brand'. What I did buy 'new' was the DCC controller, all the track, and the MegaPoints Controller stuff. All the turnouts are operated by cheap servos and frog polarity is done by a cheap microswitch.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Ian

[Ripstitch]

Thank you all , I have learnt a lot from your replies. I am considering relaying the track in fact .  Though most of the time with most locos it works well enough. My main interest  is the scenic modelling.

My local model shop in Hereford said that it was unlikely that even if not well laid that the track was causing the loco problems.  If it were consistently  blowing decoders then maybe but it is a variety of problems broken wiring due to bogey misalignment etc. 

By the by I should have said this is in 00 gauge.

I am getting in touch with my local model railway  club .

So thanks again ,I will persevere because when running it has been an absolute joy .

[Izzy]

Hi Ripstich,

 

Having read your posts along with all the helpful replies I would have to say that I believe your problems may lie in two areas connected with decoder protection/ track cutout. I have no experience of the Dynamis EZ but it might be that it hasn’t got adequate short-circuit capabilities and this could also apply to the decoders you have used to date. Quite a few of the cheaper ones don’t have any short-circuit protection at all, which the better do. If the DCC system has good fast reaction then this might ‘save’ them when issues occur, but if not then - whoops - they are toast.

 

This is why a lot of DCC users such as myself only use Zimo. Yes, they are far from cheap now with the recent sad disappearance of the budget ones, but are still cheap when compared with the cost of multiple buys of cheap ones and the subsequent model shop costs. 
 

Getting help from a local club is a good step, so long as there is someone there with adequate DCC knowledge. Often it can be a learning curve for all concerned😁

 

Bob

Edited July 6, 2023 by Izzy