Steam loco cylinders - more is better

[Titan]

How many cylinders did the Leader have?

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Would oil firing be necessary with modern control systems? Could pulverised coal be used?

And would the control eystem need to know about the calorific value of the coal?

There was an Australian registered bulk coal carrier working out of Newcastle NSW (I think probably to China) about 25 or so years back which used coal (presumably pulverised or fluidised) to feed its boilers.  It was registered for Class with Lloyds Register's Sydney office (which is how I learnt about it when I was working in that office although i wasn't on the shipping side).

[The Stationmaster]

42 minutes ago, Titan said:

How many cylinders did the Leader have?

Three on each bogie - so a total of six.   12.5" bore x 15" stroke

[MarkC]

9 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

There was an Australian registered bulk coal carrier working out of Newcastle NSW (I think probably to China) about 25 or so years back which used coal (presumably pulverised or fluidised) to feed its boilers.  It was registered for Class with Lloyds Register's Sydney office (which is how I learnt about it when I was working in that office although i wasn't on the shipping side).

If I recall correctly she had an Archimedes screw arrangement for getting the coal into the machinery spaces, and this regularly jammed, Nightmare for the crew.

 

Mark

[johnofwessex]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

There was an Australian registered bulk coal carrier working out of Newcastle NSW (I think probably to China) about 25 or so years back which used coal (presumably pulverised or fluidised) to feed its boilers.  It was registered for Class with Lloyds Register's Sydney office (which is how I learnt about it when I was working in that office although i wasn't on the shipping side).

 

From reading the reports at the time when it was built I believe that when manoeuvring you simply dumped excess steam via the 'Silent Blow Off' (Having opened that particular valve by mistake I can assure you that it isnt silent!)

 

There was a lot of interest in 'alternative fuels' including coal at the time because of issues with price and quality so these were probably an early essay in late 20th Century steam that in the event went nowhere.

 

Here is a pic of one of them

 

https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/media/tnt-carpentaria.112294/ 

[Blandford1969]

From a simple drivers perspecitve, two preferebally outside cylindered, and if possible with some grease joints are ideal, thanks. Much simpler than trying to get to some inside the frames where you have to contort yourself .  That way more time to drink tea and chew the cud in the cabin. 

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, Blandford1969 said:

From a simple drivers perspecitve, two preferebally outside cylindered, and if possible with some grease joints are ideal, thanks. Much simpler than trying to get to some inside the frames where you have to contort yourself .  That way more time to drink tea and chew the cud in the cabin. 

Exactly the thinking of Ivatt and Riddles, and they were essentially only adopting long standing US practice. Not that the object was to allow the crew to drink more tea, at least not in paid company time.

 

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Exactly the thinking of Ivatt and Riddles, and they were essentially only adopting long standing US practice. Not that the object was to allow the crew to drink more tea, at least not in paid company time.

 

Although it's not just abput the number of cylinders and vakvegear position when it come sot making savings.  For example an original  Bulleid pacifuic required less Driver's Preparation time than an LMS 4F 0-6-0

[LMS2968]

33 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Although it's not just abput the number of cylinders and vakvegear position when it come sot making savings.  For example an original  Bulleid pacifuic required less Driver's Preparation time than an LMS 4F 0-6-0

Ah yes, but now ask the fitters . . .

[pH]

On 19/07/2023 at 10:09, jim.snowdon said:

In Britain and Ireland, the only 4-cylinder locomotives that used only two sets of valve gear were the Churchward 4-4-2/4-6-0/4-6-2 family, the Stanier Coronations and the Midland 0-10-0 Lickey Banker. Everything else used one set of valve gear for each cylinder, not that apart of the LMS Princess Royals there weren't many other 4-cylinder locomotives anyway.

Not having read through this topic before, and since I looked it up to check it, can I make a small addition to that list? 
 

Princess Royal 46205 was modified to have only two sets of valve gear, reverting later to 4 sets. Interestingly, different sources give different dates for this, varying between e.g. 1947 to 1955, and 1938 to withdrawal in 1962.

[rodent279]

1 minute ago, pH said:

Not having read through this topic before, and since I looked it up to check it, can I make a small addition to that list? 
 

Princess Royal 46205 was modified to have only two sets of valve gear, reverting later to 4 sets. Interestingly, different sources give different dates for this, varying between e.g. 1947 to 1955, and 1938 to withdrawal in 1962.

The Hughes 4-6-0's & Baltic tanks also had 2 sets, the rocking lever arrangement was closely followed in the Coronations.

[LMS2968]

44 minutes ago, pH said:

Not having read through this topic before, and since I looked it up to check it, can I make a small addition to that list? 
 

Princess Royal 46205 was modified to have only two sets of valve gear, reverting later to 4 sets. Interestingly, different sources give different dates for this, varying between e.g. 1947 to 1955, and 1938 to withdrawal in 1962.

I believe the two-gear set up was fitted in 1937. I've heard it said that it was trial for the gear for the Coronations but it was converted after 6220 entered traffic, si that can't be the case. But it carried this system to withdrawal and never regained its inside gear; photos taken just before withdrawal prove this.

[pH]

2 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

I believe the two-gear set up was fitted in 1937. I've heard it said that it was trial for the gear for the Coronations but it was converted after 6220 entered traffic, si that can't be the case. But it carried this system to withdrawal and never regained its inside gear; photos taken just before withdrawal prove this.

I’ve checked all my books and magazines, and websites that I can remember as mentioning (4)6205 valvegear modifications. The general consensus is that the change from 4 to 2 gears was in 1938 - a couple specify March 1938. Only one source says it reverted to 4 gears:

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/8p-46200-46212-4-6-2-lms-stanier-princess-royal/

 

However, I have a vague memory (how’s that for an authoritative statement 😛?) of reading that 46205 was converted back to 4 gears, but retained the heavy motion brackets. I cannot find any reference, though.

[LMS2968]

It isn't just the brackets. The rocking levers were quite noticeable and can be seen in a photo Page 29 of the Irwell Photographic Supplement to the Book of the Princess Royals (2007, Irwell Press Ltd, ISBN 1-903266-75-0). It us dated 28 May 1960 and the levers are still there. As withdrawal came 18 months later. it is very unlikely they were changed in the remaining time.

[eldomtom2]

On 11/08/2023 at 22:43, jim.snowdon said:

Exactly the thinking of Ivatt and Riddles, and they were essentially only adopting long standing US practice. Not that the object was to allow the crew to drink more tea, at least not in paid company time.

Any source that their inspiration was specifically American?

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, eldomtom2 said:

Any source that their inspiration was specifically American?

There were plenty of. British two cylinder designs with outside valve gear well before the S160s and USA tanks appeared in Britain during WWII, and the LMS had plenty of them.

 

So it was a simple thought process for Ivatt and Riddles - apart from post-war conditions likely to be more akin to recent experience that to the Pre-Group era the need was obviously for simplicity and saving labour.  That meant the minimum number of cylinders to do the job (very much a Riddles consistent design philosophy) and teh maximum accessibility to components and particularly to those which required daily, or more frequent attention.  Nothing to do with American practice but very much basic engineerings sense based on the needs of economical everyday working.

 

Similar conclusions were, or already had been, reached in numerous countries around the world and in Europe - not just in the USA. It boiled down to what the engineer  and operator wanted.  So for example in France Chapelon was following a different route with a target of achieving greater power output while also achieving fuel economy not just in new engines but even more so in extending the lives of existing engines (which was also reflected in the bonuses Drivers could earn).  But even in France the 141Rs, a simple outside cylinder, ourside valvegear design from the USA. built to fill the gaps left by wartime losses, generally outlasted far more sophisticated engines in everday traffic. 

[jim.snowdon]

5 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

Any source that their inspiration was specifically American?

No, but as a generalisation, there were two broad schools of design, British, where form came before function, and US, where function takes precedence over form. British practice tended to permeate the Empire, US practice tended to permeate the rest of the world.

[johnofwessex]

On 11/08/2023 at 22:43, jim.snowdon said:

Exactly the thinking of Ivatt and Riddles, and they were essentially only adopting long standing US practice. Not that the object was to allow the crew to drink more tea, at least not in paid company time.

 

 

Well if it allows the crew more time to drink tea it clearly isnt American practice, now if they had more time to drink coffee then its American

[eldomtom2]

2 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

No, but as a generalisation, there were two broad schools of design, British, where form came before function, and US, where function takes precedence over form. British practice tended to permeate the Empire, US practice tended to permeate the rest of the world.

I would say that is simplifying things to the point of containing very little truth whatsoever. There were a great many national traditions of steam locomotive design (as there were and are with railway practices generally), all of which influenced each other to varying extents, and placed varying emphasis on aesthetics.

[Hesperus]

On 10/07/2023 at 15:18, ciderglider said:

When reading about steam locos, I have got the impression that 3 or 4 cylinders are better than 2, 

 

Not on this odd little tram engine.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plynlimon_and_Hafan_Tramway

[Blandford1969]

On 12/08/2023 at 17:05, The Stationmaster said:

Although it's not just abput the number of cylinders and vakvegear position when it come sot making savings.  For example an original  Bulleid pacifuic required less Driver's Preparation time than an LMS 4F 0-6-0

Well an original one, that's certainly not the case with a rebult and getting to the inside engine.