Rejoiner - Advice & Tips sought

[RCP]

Hello All,

 

After two decades I'm looking to get back into railway modelling and am seeking some advice. Like many I've returned after short break between being a kid and getting life setup 😁. As a kid I never managed to get beyond trackset on the carpet despite grand plans for a loft layout. The upside is that there is a small supply of stuff to get me going, a head full of ideas and significantly more skills then back then.

 

I've kindly been let to rummage through the collection at my parents and have assembled a collection of locomotives and rolling stock. With a small child and hopefully another on the way, funds, space and time are at a premium. Enthusiasm and childlike curiosity aren't in short supply.

 

The stock I've picked out is as follows:

2x Hornby LMS 0F 

1x Lima GWR Parcel Railcar 

1x Mainline Collett Goods

1x Mainline 0-6-2 T 66xx? 

1x Airfix Large Prairie

1x Airfix 14xx

1x Replica Railways Pannier

 

1x Airfix Autocar

3x Bachmann Collett coaches

Toad

Slaters Saxo Salt kits

Bachmann 45T GWR flatbed

2x Lima Siphon G

 

2x Hornby DC controllers R912

 

Peco code 100 steamline points various

Peco code 100 flexitrack box 

Various curves and set track some steel...

 

I have an long term project and goals in mind which are the following, I'd like to move to DCC, I'm interested in block detection, my grand project idea is Frome Station replica based in early 1930's (at 7-10m total length this will have to wait until I get a garden with suitable shed, if it ever happens), I like the idea of finescale modelling.

 

I've started by servicing them so that they run, following tutorials from various YouTubers, All apart from the Large Prairie have been a successes (I'll stick that on ebay as spares/repair, its regionally wrong anyway). Some of these are not the best runners and it appears that I have a fine collection of split chassis model...

 

With this in mind and given the limited space for large layouts the obvious way to get going to to improve and refurbish the kit I have. I noticed that High level kits do chassis for the models that are split chassis. Can anyone list in order of difficultly the following candidates?

57xx Pannier

Collett Goods

66xx Small Prairie Tank

 

If I go down this route can anyone advise on the motor I should get to go with the kit? I presume that I should go for the highest gear ratio to allow slow running eg 54:1? I am planning on fitting the Hornby HM7000 decoder as it means I can skip buying a DCC controller until I have a layout and a better idea as to what I want from it.

 

Which brings us unto wheels, am I right in thinking my options are either Alan Gibson or Exactoscale are there any others? Can I use the existing wheel sets and upgrade later?

 

Given I'm looking at rebuilding and new chassis I'm aware that it might be the perfect oppertunity to move to P4, however my thoughts were that it might preclude engagement by the little one as they've shown interest in Thomas & friends. If the request comes through for a Thomas train then any trainset that Dad has would be incompatible. With that said. Something a little more realistic would be good, and the PECO bullhead track for visible layout and hand made points seems like an ok compromise. Which brings us to wheels. Would the packs of Dapol wheels be suitable for PECO bullhead rail and custom points or do I need something of finer scale?

 

I'm familiarising (or intend to) myself with Templot for custom points, and think you can print in 3d the underbit. Does anyone know of a suitable printing service for this? I have a creality 3d extrusion printer but suspect it might not be accurate enough.

 

Apologies for the long post. Any advice gratefully received.

 

TL:DR

 

Q1 - Order of difficulty of High Level kits?
Q2 - Which HL motor?
Q3 - Which gear ratio?
Q4 - Where to buy locomotive wheels?
Q5 - Would the packs of Dapol wheels be suitable for PECO bullhead rail and custom points?
Q6 - Where best to get custom points bases in plastic printed if needed?

Bonus Question, what detailing would you do given the starting stock.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by RCP

[Helmdon]

Welcome to my world. Gave up aged 15 in 1995, came back to it 3 years ago. Now aged 42 with a nearly 3 year old and a 7 month old.

 

will reply properly tomorrow when not on my phone.

[ITG]

Hi

not sure of your time lag, but by comparison I drifted away from a dad-influenced/supported involvement the the hobby when I discovered girls, Lambrettas and beer (maybe 16 years old) to return about 4 years ago in mid sixties.

I had no stock or equipment, and that gave me licence to start afresh. Research led me to jump straight in with DCC. A no brainier for me. Would I have felt confident in converting old locos to DCC at that stage? No.

Would I have wanted to add that how-to-convert learning on top of learning DCC itself? No.

Would I have considered anything for track/turnouts other than code 100 streamline? No.

But only you can assess where you start from, how confident you feel etc. I’d lean towards walking before running.

but good luck

Ian

[Mark Forrest]

In 00 (and EM), you can add Markits (Romford) wheels to your options, these have the advantage of being self quartering.

High Level Kits are very well thought out and carefully designed, they come with excellent instructions and have the option to include compensation designed in.  Of those that you list, the 57xx is probably the most obvious starting point.  Motor and gears depends on how you want it to run.  That said though, depending on your level of soldering experience personally I'd suggest starting with something simpler, maybe an etched brass wagon kit.

Word of warning though, once you add the price of the chassis, wheels, motor and a few bits and bobs, if cost is a consideration, you might be better off looking for a RTR Bachmann pannier that's DCC ready or have a look on Bachmann Spares website to see if they have a modern RTR chassis.  To some extent it really just depends if you get your kicks building or running your models.  That wouldn't necessarily prevent you going P4 at some point as replacement wheelsets are available from either Alan Gibson or Ultrascale.

 

When it comes to detailing, again it's a matter of how much time and effort you want to put in.

 

If you are interested in trying P4, I'd suggest considering joining the Scalefour Society; the society often has a stand at shows and there is the Scaleforum event in September.  Much of the S4 Soc web forum is viewable to non-members if you want to have look around.  The EM Gauge society also support modellers working in P4 as well as (obviously) EM.  There is ExpoEM Summer in Wakefield in a couple of weeks, a great opportunity to speak to modellers who are exhibiting and demonstrating - as well as several of the suppliers you mention being present.

 

Probably more food for thought than answers to questions, but I hope that helps.

[RCP]

12 hours ago, ITG said:

Hi

not sure of your time lag, but by comparison I drifted away from a dad-influenced/supported involvement the the hobby when I discovered girls, Lambrettas and beer (maybe 16 years old) to return about 4 years ago in mid sixties.

I had no stock or equipment, and that gave me licence to start afresh. Research led me to jump straight in with DCC. A no brainier for me. Would I have felt confident in converting old locos to DCC at that stage? No.

Would I have wanted to add that how-to-convert learning on top of learning DCC itself? No.

Would I have considered anything for track/turnouts other than code 100 streamline? No.

But only you can assess where you start from, how confident you feel etc. I’d lean towards walking before running.

but good luck

Ian

 

I've returned a little earlier at mid thirties, whilst I appreciate that the wish list looks high, electronics are not a new thing for me and didn't disappear during the interregnum. 

 

I'm trying to structure how I reengage with modelling taking the stuff that I have applicable knowledge first hence the fit dcc comes high on the list. The other driver is the lack of space currently for a layout of any sensible proportions, so the items picked enable smaller space layouts or can be done as small stand alone projects. I'm thinking that a rehash of Bredon from the 1970s with custom point work would be a good first project given the streamline peco points by and large don't work with the layout.

 

With that said fully take onboard that its a tall order in places. I'd just rather aim at where I want to be from the start so the direction of travel is clear. Nothing more depressing that going through the motions of something that you know you don't want. 

[RCP]

12 hours ago, Mark Forrest said:

In 00 (and EM), you can add Markits (Romford) wheels to your options, these have the advantage of being self quartering.

High Level Kits are very well thought out and carefully designed, they come with excellent instructions and have the option to include compensation designed in.  Of those that you list, the 57xx is probably the most obvious starting point.  Motor and gears depends on how you want it to run.  That said though, depending on your level of soldering experience personally I'd suggest starting with something simpler, maybe an etched brass wagon kit.

Word of warning though, once you add the price of the chassis, wheels, motor and a few bits and bobs, if cost is a consideration, you might be better off looking for a RTR Bachmann pannier that's DCC ready or have a look on Bachmann Spares website to see if they have a modern RTR chassis.  To some extent it really just depends if you get your kicks building or running your models.  That wouldn't necessarily prevent you going P4 at some point as replacement wheelsets are available from either Alan Gibson or Ultrascale.

 

When it comes to detailing, again it's a matter of how much time and effort you want to put in.

 

If you are interested in trying P4, I'd suggest considering joining the Scalefour Society; the society often has a stand at shows and there is the Scaleforum event in September.  Much of the S4 Soc web forum is viewable to non-members if you want to have look around.  The EM Gauge society also support modellers working in P4 as well as (obviously) EM.  There is ExpoEM Summer in Wakefield in a couple of weeks, a great opportunity to speak to modellers who are exhibiting and demonstrating - as well as several of the suppliers you mention being present.

 

Probably more food for thought than answers to questions, but I hope that helps.

 

Many thanks for the response, I'll add Markits to the list. I did look at the price difference but for me the running trains is secondary to the building and skills learning, I presume that a well built kit from HL won't be a bad runner and its something I can do on the kitchen table whilst I make space for a layout. The other advantage is I can space out the costs just buying the next bit when I need it. I have quite a few of the pricey bits and bobs to get going so there isn't that (airbrush/weller) just specific consumables needed. I'll take your advice on the pannier. Its a rubbish runner anyway.

 

With regards to P4 I think my enthusiasm stops at trying to sort out the valve gear for models. I've been reading with interest the scalefour forum and it does seem like a goldmine. If I win the lottery I'll go P4 otherwise 00-SF seems like the route forward as you can if I understood chop and change to a degree between kit and pre made. I am planning on going to an Expo but this years is likely to fall inconveniently. Would be good to see a compete list of expos available through the year.  

Edited August 10, 2023 by RCP

[kevinlms]

Is there a club or similar near you, so you can attend and see what can be done, as well as talk to locals how they went about building something fine scale? Multiple visits are practical, if you know they meet every week, for example - even if you don't go each week yourself.

 

OO-SF, while quite possible to model, it is a fair bit of work, since track needs building/modifying. Not sure that OO-SF is an answer, because the track gauge is further under gauge than normal OO, but your choice.

Attending an annual expo or similar doesn't always help.

 

FWIW, I've got a lottery win to pick up - $93.00. My dream layout is still on hold!

[RCP]

14 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Is there a club or similar near you, so you can attend and see what can be done, as well as talk to locals how they went about building something fine scale? Multiple visits are practical, if you know they meet every week, for example - even if you don't go each week yourself.

 

OO-SF, while quite possible to model, it is a fair bit of work, since track needs building/modifying. Not sure that OO-SF is an answer, because the track gauge is further under gauge than normal OO, but your choice.

Attending an annual expo or similar doesn't always help.

 

FWIW, I've got a lottery win to pick up - $93.00. My dream layout is still on hold!

 

I think there is one near ish but unsure how to get involved Mizens Railway (Woking Miniature Railway Society) and can't find an email address...

 

I was under the illusion that 00-SF could be kept to the point work and that i could use flexitrack (say peco code 75 bullhead) for the rest? Am I wrong? Might need to look at a different gauge if that's so. 

 

 

[Mark Forrest]

2 hours ago, RCP said:

 

Would be good to see a compete list of expos available through the year.  

Here you go...

 

https://www.scalefour.org/shows/shows.html

 

https://emgs.org/shows-exhibitions/?date1=upcoming

 

[NBL]

I can understand wanting to model to finer standards, especially when coming back into the hobby.

 

If I were you I'd take it slowly and learn what skills you have before committing to anything other than RTR at the moment.

 

Building chassis kits and custom pointwork takes a lot of skill and patience and doesn't guarantee better running, or even better looks.

 

I've seen well modelled RTR on code 100 track look better than many finescale layouts, mainly due to careful weathering and a consistent look across the layout.

 

As has been pointed out above, the cost of new wheels, motor and gearbox all adds up to a significant amount.

 

If you want to go down the finescale route, practice on cheap second hand wagon kits and develop your skillset.

 

Regarding your query on Dapol wheel packs, I'd avoid these as they seem to be unable to stay on the track for whatever reason!

 

 

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

31 minutes ago, NBL said:

If I were you I'd take it slowly and learn what skills you have before committing to anything other than RTR at the moment.

I support this. During your two decade absence, the world changed. The injection of well proven HO technique has supplied a good selection of RTR OO models to the standard that previously required competence in kit or scratch building and painting. The traction works with no need for traction tyres, and with a DCC decoder there is running refinement on offer. Take a look at what's available before setting a course. 

 

46 minutes ago, NBL said:

I've seen well modelled RTR on code 100 track look better than many finescale layouts, mainly due to careful weathering and a consistent look across the layout.

Consistency really scores, as the late Iain Rice was apt to point out. Knowing where the RTR product standard lies gives you a marker for what's to be achieved; and there are still plenty of opportunities for DIY: subjects that are unlikely to get a RTR model are what I would suggest focussing on. Make such character items yourself, these will set your layout apart; while the RTR brands can do the donkey work.

[RCP]

2 hours ago, NBL said:

I can understand wanting to model to finer standards, especially when coming back into the hobby.

 

If I were you I'd take it slowly and learn what skills you have before committing to anything other than RTR at the moment.

 

Building chassis kits and custom pointwork takes a lot of skill and patience and doesn't guarantee better running, or even better looks.

 

I've seen well modelled RTR on code 100 track look better than many finescale layouts, mainly due to careful weathering and a consistent look across the layout.

 

As has been pointed out above, the cost of new wheels, motor and gearbox all adds up to a significant amount.

 

If you want to go down the finescale route, practice on cheap second hand wagon kits and develop your skillset.

 

Regarding your query on Dapol wheel packs, I'd avoid these as they seem to be unable to stay on the track for whatever reason!

 

 

 

 

Thanks for this, can you recommend any good replacement wheels? I’m looking to add lights to the Collett coaches so metal is a must. Preferably would work well with 00-SF if I went down that route.

 

Accepted that it’s an expensive proposition building the kits, but the wagons aren’t particularly cheap either and the upshot is I would have one model that would be easier to convert to DCC. Worst case scenario I make a mess of the chassis kit and have to eBay at a loss the motor and wheel set.  Also given the lack of layout it’s something that I can be getting on with. 
 

For the point work I’m thinking of starting out by replicating a PECO point and going for there. Again more the s**ts and giggles. Worst case scenario I end with a useless piece of metal. 😂

 

[NBL]

2 hours ago, RCP said:

Thanks for this, can you recommend any good replacement wheels? I’m looking to add lights to the Collett coaches so metal is a must. Preferably would work well with 00-SF if I went down that route.

 

Accepted that it’s an expensive proposition building the kits, but the wagons aren’t particularly cheap either and the upshot is I would have one model that would be easier to convert to DCC. Worst case scenario I make a mess of the chassis kit and have to eBay at a loss the motor and wheel set.  Also given the lack of layout it’s something that I can be getting on with. 
 

For the point work I’m thinking of starting out by replicating a PECO point and going for there. Again more the s**ts and giggles. Worst case scenario I end with a useless piece of metal. 😂

 

Bachmann and Hornby wheels are good, as are Markits and Gibson

 

Replicating a Peco point is a good idea, it will allow you to hone your soldering skills, which is something I've never mastered in 30 years of trying.  I can solder electrical items but when it comes to anything else, I just don't have that skillset - even after being shown by someone who builds brass kits for a living!

[Ben Alder]

For point work take a look at the Finetrax range, a good balance of self assembly and guaranteed running. Once you go beyond the ready to plonk side of model railways, there are a range of skill sets necessary, all of which take time  to acquire and perfect, and it is often an idea to adopt aspects that are proven and compatible with finer scale modelling. RTR loco chassis are a good example, with nearly all current ones being a  reliable well running way to power a kit body . Once you achieve your desired finishes some of these things can be revisited and worked on without them having held back an actual running layout.

 

 

[RCP]

Many thanks for all the replies, based of the feedback I'm going to run with the following.

 

The point made by 34theletterbetweenB&D that subjects that are unlikely to get a RTR model are what I would I should focus on has me torn on the way forward. Looking around at Brass kits they aren't exactly cheap or at least the ones that I've have an interest in building. With that in mind I think I'll order the Collett tender kit and if it all goes horribly wrong then its a cheap ish loss and at best I've got something that I want.

 

I'll start with replicating a peco turnout, maybe something like the ST240 set track turnout, and try out different methods. That should familiarise myself with templot and turnout modelling. I think that's in 00-BF gauge so if anyone can recommend a good set of track gauges that would be great?

 

I'm going to start with a Bredon style layout and will give the new PECO curved turnouts a go. This will be in Code 100, as I have a load of that track, Just need to filter out steel rails... I'll wire this with DCC and block detection in mind so I'll make another post with the proposed layout and where the insulated fish plates should go.

 

I'll run with my idea of Hornby DCC decoders. Probably starting with the Parcel Van as there is loads of space in it so should be the easiest to convert and I can use the already available 8pin. I suspect I will have to wait for the 6pin to come available to fit them in the smaller engines.

 

Ordered a 00neal printed 12xx body for one of the pugs which should make a good testbed for trying out airbrushing locomotives. 

 

Once again thanks for all the advice!

 

 

[Torper]

As you have finescale aspirations it's a pity that you've decided to stick with code 100 track.  I know that you've got a fair bit of it, but Peco's code 75 00 bullhead is of finescale standard, except of course for the small matter of 2.33mm!  Having said that, I've seen 00 layouts built with Peco code 75 bullhead that from most angles are virtually indistinguishable from EM and P4.  And I'd echo Ben Alder's recommendation for the British Finescale range of pointwork.  If you then want to go to on to P4, fine, but don't believe anyone who tells you that it's easy - it isn't! (Don't Ask Me How I Know).  I wouldn't consider 00-SF as I just don't see the point of it, particuarly as today's 00 pointwork from the likes of Peco and British Finescale is so good.

 

If you do fancy trying P4, than abandon any steam locos, at least initially, and try converting a diesel using a Gibson conversion kit and following instructions such as http://www.norgrove.me.uk/classes24-25-44.htm .  Although I find it difficult to use the words "easy" and "P4" in the same sentence, this is an exception - converting an 00 diesel loco to P4 can be quite easy!  And British Finescale is now producing very reasonably priced pointwork in P4 (building your own pointwork in P4 can be fraught with hazards, again, DAMHIK).

 

Brass kits - well, I like building brass kits but there again my soldering skills are quite good and you need to be able to solder to build a brass kit.  And a brass loco kit is likely to be expensive, especially when you add in the motor, gearbox, wheels, DCC chip, andf anything else that isn't specifically included with the kit.  On the other hand, again speaking from my own experience, it'll probably take you ages to build it, and then a further length of time to tweak it so as to get it running properly (and I suspect that there are quite a lot of brass kits that have never got near a layout because they've never run properly).  So on the basis of time spent enjoying your hobby it's quite good value!  As for new loco wheels for 00, Markits would seem to me to be the preferable choice if only because they are self quartering.

 

DT

[RCP]

1 hour ago, Torper said:

As you have finescale aspirations it's a pity that you've decided to stick with code 100 track.  I know that you've got a fair bit of it, but Peco's code 75 00 bullhead is of finescale standard, except of course for the small matter of 2.33mm!  Having said that, I've seen 00 layouts built with Peco code 75 bullhead that from most angles are virtually indistinguishable from EM and P4.  And I'd echo Ben Alder's recommendation for the British Finescale range of pointwork.  If you then want to go to on to P4, fine, but don't believe anyone who tells you that it's easy - it isn't! (Don't Ask Me How I Know).  I wouldn't consider 00-SF as I just don't see the point of it, particuarly as today's 00 pointwork from the likes of Peco and British Finescale is so good.

 

If you do fancy trying P4, than abandon any steam locos, at least initially, and try converting a diesel using a Gibson conversion kit and following instructions such as http://www.norgrove.me.uk/classes24-25-44.htm .  Although I find it difficult to use the words "easy" and "P4" in the same sentence, this is an exception - converting an 00 diesel loco to P4 can be quite easy!  And British Finescale is now producing very reasonably priced pointwork in P4 (building your own pointwork in P4 can be fraught with hazards, again, DAMHIK).

 

Brass kits - well, I like building brass kits but there again my soldering skills are quite good and you need to be able to solder to build a brass kit.  And a brass loco kit is likely to be expensive, especially when you add in the motor, gearbox, wheels, DCC chip, andf anything else that isn't specifically included with the kit.  On the other hand, again speaking from my own experience, it'll probably take you ages to build it, and then a further length of time to tweak it so as to get it running properly (and I suspect that there are quite a lot of brass kits that have never got near a layout because they've never run properly).  So on the basis of time spent enjoying your hobby it's quite good value!  As for new loco wheels for 00, Markits would seem to me to be the preferable choice if only because they are self quartering.

 

DT

 

Markits seems like the way to go.. The brass kits seem like fun so looking to dip my toe in and give it a go, that and seems like a fun way to spend a few hours in the evening :-). I really like the idea of P4 but the radius are just prohibitive at the moment. Give it a few years and a bit more space then that or EM seems like the way to go. From threads I understand that you can use EM wheels on 00 stuff so might down the route of re-wheeling stuff with EM compatible wheels and then change the axels if and when I make the jump. I'm trying to avoid buying multiple times, so better once is the plan.

 

It'll be code 100 for the first layout as it'll be the fastest way to get me up and running without breaking the bank. That and there aren't any bullhead turnouts in the type I need just yet and I'm under no illusion that my first couple of turnouts are likely to be "sub optimal". Once I've butchered the track I have I'll look at replacing stuff with the bullhead.

Edited August 11, 2023 by RCP

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, RCP said:

 

I'll start with replicating a peco turnout, maybe something like the ST240 set track turnout, and try out different methods. That should familiarise myself with templot and turnout modelling. I think that's in 00-BF gauge so if anyone can recommend a good set of track gauges that would be great?

 

 

I wouldn't bother attempting to replicate a Set track point. The forum has lots of questions asking about problems with various ST points., so it's a definite blind alley.

[martin_wynne]

On 10/08/2023 at 12:07, RCP said:

I was under the illusion that 00-SF could be kept to the point work and that i could use flexitrack (say peco code 75 bullhead) for the rest? Am I wrong? Might need to look at a different gauge if that's so. 

 

 

You are not wrong. Many/most 00-SF modellers use ordinary code 75 flexi-track for their plain track. For pointwork, a range of easy-build Finetrax pointwork kits is available for 00-SF:

 

 https://www.britishfinescale.com/

 

You should completely ignore and disregard suggestions that 00-SF is worse than standard 00 because the track gauge (16.2mm) is even smaller. No-one can see that difference without measuring it -- but they can and will notice that the narrower flangeways look much more realistic, and notice the improved running with kit wheels.

 

More about 00-SF at: https://85a.uk/00-sf/

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[RCP]

32 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

You are not wrong. Many/most 00-SF modellers use ordinary code 75 flexi-track for their plain track. For pointwork, a range of easy-build Finetrax pointwork kits is available for 00-SF:

 

 https://www.britishfinescale.com/

 

You should completely ignore and disregard suggestions that 00-SF is worse than standard 00 because the track gauge (16.2mm) is even smaller. No-one can see that difference without measuring it -- but they can and will notice that the narrower flangeways look much more realistic, and notice the improved running with kit wheels.

 

More about 00-SF at: https://85a.uk/00-sf/

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Thanks Martin. I largely based my 00-SF idea off your posts and the 00-SF guide on your website. Its good to have confirmation. I imagine I'll be postig questions soon enough on the templot forum..

[Jol Wilkinson]

On 11/08/2023 at 11:46, Torper said:

As you have finescale aspirations it's a pity that you've decided to stick with code 100 track.  I know that you've got a fair bit of it, but Peco's code 75 00 bullhead is of finescale standard, except of course for the small matter of 2.33mm!  Having said that, I've seen 00 layouts built with Peco code 75 bullhead that from most angles are virtually indistinguishable from EM and P4.  And I'd echo Ben Alder's recommendation for the British Finescale range of pointwork.  If you then want to go to on to P4, fine, but don't believe anyone who tells you that it's easy - it isn't! (Don't Ask Me How I Know).  I wouldn't consider 00-SF as I just don't see the point of it, particuarly as today's 00 pointwork from the likes of Peco and British Finescale is so good.

 

If you do fancy trying P4, than abandon any steam locos, at least initially, and try converting a diesel using a Gibson conversion kit and following instructions such as http://www.norgrove.me.uk/classes24-25-44.htm .  Although I find it difficult to use the words "easy" and "P4" in the same sentence, this is an exception - converting an 00 diesel loco to P4 can be quite easy!  And British Finescale is now producing very reasonably priced pointwork in P4 (building your own pointwork in P4 can be fraught with hazards, again, DAMHIK).

 

Brass kits - well, I like building brass kits but there again my soldering skills are quite good and you need to be able to solder to build a brass kit.  And a brass loco kit is likely to be expensive, especially when you add in the motor, gearbox, wheels, DCC chip, andf anything else that isn't specifically included with the kit.  On the other hand, again speaking from my own experience, it'll probably take you ages to build it, and then a further length of time to tweak it so as to get it running properly (and I suspect that there are quite a lot of brass kits that have never got near a layout because they've never run properly).  So on the basis of time spent enjoying your hobby it's quite good value!  As for new loco wheels for 00, Markits would seem to me to be the preferable choice if only because they are self quartering.

 

DT

 

Building models and trackwork in P4 is generally not much more difficult than in OO. EM provides a better compromise for those who lack confidence or have yet to hone their model making skills. The same "rules" apply, use the right tools and materials, especially for soldering. Handbuilt track in particular is essentially the same in all three 4mm gauges, the only difference being the gauges.

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Building models and trackwork in P4 is generally not much more difficult than in OO. EM

 

Hi Jol,

 

Building models and trackwork probably isn't much more difficult in P4 -- but building baseboards is definitely more difficult in P4. A successful P4 layout requires good carpentry skills above all else, especially for a portable layout with tracks crossing baseboard joints.

 

Those P4 wheel flanges are tiny, and even tinier after accumulating any dirt on the wheels. Baseboards need to be dead flat, and baseboard joints must align perfectly every time.

 

The planet is littered with abandoned P4 layouts where the baseboards sagged or warped, or with a baseboard joint which derailed everything which tried to get across it. 🙂

 

Martin.

[Torper]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

Building models and trackwork in P4 is generally not much more difficult than in OO. EM provides a better compromise for those who lack confidence or have yet to hone their model making skills. The same "rules" apply, use the right tools and materials, especially for soldering. Handbuilt track in particular is essentially the same in all three 4mm gauges, the only difference being the gauges.

 

Sorry, Jol, but that's something of a myth.  The great advantage in 00 for most people is that you can nowadays buy very good RTR 00 models that will run well as soon as you put them on the track.  OK, some give problems but these are resolved by returning the model to the retailer and getting a  replacement.  Building an etched brass loco kit is, as you say, not dissimilar in any scale but in P4 you also have to worry about compensation or springing, and quite often wheel clearance, not to mention quartering, something that can be avoided in 00 or EM by the use of Markits wheels.

 

Insofar as track is concerned, there is a wide range of 00 plain track and turnouts available from a variety of manufacturers, again of a high standard.  You don't have to make it in 00 or EM.  Happily the Scalefour Society has at last arranged for Wayne Kinney to provide a reasonably priced turnout kit in P4, but if you want to make your own track - and nothing looks better than real wood sleepers - it'll be expensive (I once worked out that a yard of track using laser cut ply sleepers, nickel silver rail and Exactoscale chairs came to something the region of £18) and beware the built-in cant in Exactoscale chairs - I've had to rebuild much of my pointwork because, even although I used the society gauges and even though there is no cant on prototype pointwork, the cant, not initially obvious, increasingly led to gauge narrowing and derailments..

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Jol,

 

Building models and trackwork probably isn't much more difficult in P4 -- but building baseboards is definitely more difficult in P4. A successful P4 layout requires good carpentry skills above all else, especially for a portable layout with tracks crossing baseboard joints.

 

Those P4 wheel flanges are tiny, and even tinier after accumulating any dirt on the wheels. Baseboards need to be dead flat, and baseboard joints must align perfectly every time.

 

The planet is littered with abandoned P4 layouts where the baseboards sagged or warped, or with a baseboard joint which derailed everything which tried to get across it. 🙂

 

Martin.

 

Martyn,

 

given that so many modellers can and do  buy laser cut baseboard kits  now, then the need for good carpentry skills are less of a deterrent. Decent baseboards with  good track alignment are a must in any scale/gauge for good running. That is especially true for exhibition layouts. I built my baseboards from birch ply with only the use of hand tools,  circular and mitre saws. 

 

And how do you know that the planet is littered with abandoned P4 layouts? I have been a member of the S4 Society (and the EMGS) for many years and haven't encountered any.

 

1 hour ago, Torper said:

 

Sorry, Jol, but that's something of a myth.  The great advantage in 00 for most people is that you can nowadays buy very good RTR 00 models that will run well as soon as you put them on the track.  OK, some give problems but these are resolved by returning the model to the retailer and getting a  replacement.  Building an etched brass loco kit is, as you say, not dissimilar in any scale but in P4 you also have to worry about compensation or springing, and quite often wheel clearance, not to mention quartering, something that can be avoided in 00 or EM by the use of Markits wheels.

 

Insofar as track is concerned, there is a wide range of 00 plain track and turnouts available from a variety of manufacturers, again of a high standard.  You don't have to make it in 00 or EM.  Happily the Scalefour Society has at last arranged for Wayne Kinney to provide a reasonably priced turnout kit in P4, but if you want to make your own track - and nothing looks better than real wood sleepers - it'll be expensive (I once worked out that a yard of track using laser cut ply sleepers, nickel silver rail and Exactoscale chairs came to something the region of £18) and beware the built-in cant in Exactoscale chairs - I've had to rebuild much of my pointwork because, even although I used the society gauges and even though there is no cant on prototype pointwork, the cant, not initially obvious, increasingly led to gauge narrowing and derailments..

 

 

if there is a myth it is largely put about by those who want to believe it. What you say about RTR is true nowadays but not many years ago that wasn't the case. I regard myself as an ordinary modeller but found I could build P4 models that run better than when I built OO ones. Wheel clearances aren't always better in OO/EM than P4 as the wheel/tyres are often wider, reducing the apparent advantage. Quartering can be a problem with press fit wheels, but it isn't too difficult to overcome.

 

Track costs? I have just built about 18M of plain P4 track (EMGS laser cut sleepers and n/s rail plus Exactoscale chairs) at a cost of about £12.50 per metre. C&L flexitrack is £12.14 per metre, although Peco OO flexitrack is about half that. Is the cost of track significant in the overall cost of building and stocking a layout? I suggest that it isn't. As for reliability, my previous P4 layout was shown at a number of exhibitions over about ten years and I had very few problems, all of which were down to transport or setting up.

 

What even the much wider range of RTR models now available doesn't give, is the freedom to model something different if that takes your fancy. I like to model the Edwardian LNWR, something I can't do realistically with RTR.

 

Jol

 

 

 

[martin_wynne]

22 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

And how do you know that the planet is littered with abandoned P4 layouts? I have been a member of the S4 Society (and the EMGS) for many years and haven't encountered any.

 

Hi Jol,

 

I may have exaggerated slightly. I do know of a couple. 🙂

 

Sure you can buy baseboards, but they are not cheap. This is a topic from a raw beginner -- he needs to know what the important issues are before being given possible solutions. For P4, baseboards are definitely an issue. I don't really think it is fair to a beginner to start suggesting P4 when he is still at the stage of discussing Peco set-track. Let folks learn to walk before telling them they ought to be running.

 

00 RTR on 00-SF Finetrax turnout kits would be a good step up from Peco. Many fine layouts have been and are being built that way.

 

Martin.