Class 91s on sleepers

[18B]

Hi. 
 

would happen to know if a class 91 ever worked a sleeper service like they were partially designed for? 

[Wickham Green too]

Probably not - Sleepers were not unknown at Kings Cross but only when Euston was out of action : - 

 

20/4/19

[Guest]

The east coast sleepers had been stopped by the time the 91s were introduced I think. partly a casualty of cuts but also probably the disruption caused by electrification works.
 

The class 91s were then only ever trialled/demonstrated on the west coast main line as a move to try to encourage the government of the time to invest in a new fleet in the last years of BR. I recall that, in the end, an order went in for 365s instead as a means of trying to save York works from closure.

 

I think they were only really ever used on the Mk4 stock, and briefly on adapted Mk3s with a class 43 as a power car in their early days on the Leeds services.
 

As I understand it, the 91s are essentially an APT power car with two cabs. 
 

That’s not to say that they could have hauled sleepers in an alternative reality, of course… 

 

[keefer]

I think it was BR being a bit optimistic during the design process, in specifying that the loco be 'programmable' according to the duty required i.e. express passenger, heavy sleeper etc. While this would ensure high usage, in reality there's no way you could have a loco on ECML diagrams and still have it available at night. Maintenance takes time and has to happen sometime!

It was a similar situation with the Prototype HST - the power cars were classed as locos and there were plans for being able to work night trains, with 2PCs back-to-back.

[PerthBox]

1 hour ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

The east coast sleepers had been stopped by the time the 91s were introduced I think. partly a casualty of cuts but also probably the disruption caused by electrification works.
 

The East Coast sleepers were ‘temporarily’ cancelled to facilitate the electrification work but never returned. 

[Guest]

I guess they would have ordered more if things had been different. It might also have been a means to satisfy the bean counters that the  91s weren’t a one-trick pony and could be used for other purposes. Investment decisions then were almost as tightly controlled as they are now. I only ever saw them running blunt end first a couple of times. 

 

1 minute ago, PerthBox said:

The East Coast sleepers were ‘temporarily’ cancelled to facilitate the electrification work but never returned. 

 

A shame, but it wasn’t that much later when the highland sleeper itself was under threat. 

[bécasse]

1 hour ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

Investment decisions then were almost as tightly controlled as they are now.

I suspect even more closely. I got tangentially involved with the APTIS project in the early 1980s and the Department for Transport (ie the Treasury) became concerned that it was over specified. They had PwC carry out a review and fortuitously they came back with the suggestion that "surely off-the-shelf cash registers could be used", except, of course, that they couldn't provide the management information on journey patterns that the Department required (and indeed were effectively already used at many sales points). Even the Treasury realised that that was an own goal and APTIS, which really was exceptional value for money, went ahead.

[8K77]

They loco's have hauled Sleeper Stock on the ECML but this was on traction training and mileage accumulation runs mainly between Kings Cross & Doncaster, Wakefield, Leeds and York. 

 

Thanks, 

K77

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, 8K77 said:

They loco's have hauled Sleeper Stock on the ECML but this was on traction training and mileage accumulation runs mainly between Kings Cross & Doncaster, Wakefield, Leeds and York. 

 

Thanks, 

K77

 

Was this when they were first delivered in the late 80s/early 90s?

[phil-b259]

36 minutes ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

 

Was this when they were first delivered in the late 80s/early 90s?

Yup.

 

To reiterate the 91s have NEVER hauled (or pushed) anything other than the Mk4s or the MK3 + HST power car acting as a DVT) in revenue earning service.

 

Any pictures of them with anything else are commissioning / post works testing runs.

Edited August 20, 2023 by phil-b259

[Guest]

It makes me feel rather old to see them going for scrap. I lived in Yorkshire up until 1991 so they’ve been a part of my adult life. They are/were very loud when starting up (not as loud as HST Valentas mind you!). 

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

Not 'alf as old as those of us wot remember Deltics ....................................

[RFS]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Not 'alf as old as those of us wot remember Deltics ....................................

 

Or even those of us who remember A4s ....

[Knapdale]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

Yup.

 

To reiterate the 91s have NEVER hauled (or pushed) anything other than the Mk4s or the MK3 + HST power car acting as a DVT) in revenue earning service.

 

Any pictures of them with anything else are commissioning / post works testing runs.

There are pictures available in Modern Locomotives Illustrated Class 91s (No. 229) of 91s hauling out of use Mk3 sleepers as part of these test runs. The dates range from May 1988 to July 1989. 
Also, in the same issue is a picture of a 91 running blunt end first hauling a Mk1 charter train and a Mk3 sleeper was used as a barrier. This occurred in May 1992 and is described as “likely… being used as a driver training run.”

[phil-b259]

26 minutes ago, Knapdale said:

There are pictures available in Modern Locomotives Illustrated Class 91s (No. 229) of 91s hauling out of use Mk3 sleepers as part of these test runs. The dates range from May 1988 to July 1989. 
Also, in the same issue is a picture of a 91 running blunt end first hauling a Mk1 charter train and a Mk3 sleeper was used as a barrier. This occurred in May 1992 and is described as “likely… being used as a driver training run.”

Note the phrase ‘revenue earning’ in my post.

 

However by 1992 driver training duties at that date would usually be done with Mk4s and with regular service trains. On the other hand if you have just done repair and want to test the loco putting it out on a scheduled service train is asking for trouble - it’s much safer to send it out under test with whatever you can find - and as Bounds Green depot was also the home of the IC Mk1 charter rake in the early 1990s it doesn’t take a genius to work out that would be ideal to ‘borrow’ for a quick test run.

[Matt37268]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Yup.

 

To reiterate the 91s have NEVER hauled (or pushed) anything other than the Mk4s or the MK3 + HST power car acting as a DVT) in revenue earning service.

 

Any pictures of them with anything else are commissioning / post works testing runs.

I suggest a look at these… 

 

[Knapdale]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

Note the phrase ‘revenue earning’ in my post.

 

However by 1992 driver training duties at that date would usually be done with Mk4s and with regular service trains. On the other hand if you have just done repair and want to test the loco putting it out on a scheduled service train is asking for trouble - it’s much safer to send it out under test with whatever you can find - and as Bounds Green depot was also the home of the IC Mk1 charter rake in the early 1990s it doesn’t take a genius to work out that would be ideal to ‘borrow’ for a quick test run.

Sorry, my quote of your post was to support what you wrote and provide dates that the OP requested. It wasn’t posted to provide evidence to contradict it. Maybe wasn’t clear in the way it was worded. 

[Wickham Green too]

4 hours ago, 8K77 said:

They loco's have hauled Sleeper Stock on the ECML but this was on traction training and mileage accumulation runs mainly between Kings Cross & Doncaster, Wakefield, Leeds and York.  ...

Wood Green : 25/8/88

 

10 hours ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

... I only ever saw them running blunt end first a couple of times. ...

 

Kings Cross : 5/12/89 ...... presumably an empty arrival from Bounds Green as 08.724 removed the HST set so 91.009 could run round : -

 

Hmmmmmmm !

[AMJ]

In the early days running into Leeds there were times that the software had issues so they would run the 91 around the train and head back to London with 91 at south end running blunt end first.  I have had haulage with both Mk III and 4 stock - got photos somewhere.

[drjcontroller]

I have a photo taken at Doncaster on 23/7/89 of 91005 departing with 1A24, the 15:23 Hull to Kings Cross blunt end first on Mk2 stock. I don't know whether it was being used for driving training or whether this was a diagrammed working, but it was certainly a revenue earning WTT service.

 

Douglas

[hexagon789]

14 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Yup.

 

To reiterate the 91s have NEVER hauled (or pushed) anything other than the Mk4s or the MK3 + HST power car acting as a DVT) in revenue earning service.

 

Any pictures of them with anything else are commissioning / post works testing runs.

The regularly hauled the evening Peterborough commuter Mk2 set in revenue service in the early years.

 

They have also worked a few railtours of predominantly Mk1 coaches.

[hexagon789]

1 hour ago, drjcontroller said:

I have a photo taken at Doncaster on 23/7/89 of 91005 departing with 1A24, the 15:23 Hull to Kings Cross blunt end first on Mk2 stock. I don't know whether it was being used for driving training or whether this was a diagrammed working, but it was certainly a revenue earning WTT service.

 

Douglas

They hauled a few conventional trains in the early years. Including the Peterborough commuter Mk2 set.

[phil-b259]

37 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

The regularly hauled the evening Peterborough commuter Mk2 set in revenue service in the early years.

 

They have also worked a few railtours of predominantly Mk1 coaches.

Once the full ECML electrification was complete the fleet utilisation was such that there weren’t spare 91s sitting around to be used for anything else (Indeed their reliability was such that the a class 90 ended up permanently on loan so as to ensure the full timetable could be operated)

 

However as the ECML was energised in stages and the locos were delivered much earlier than the Mk4 stock there were occasions where the locos were standing idle and as such could be used on things like Hull and Peterborough trains to aid driver training and to get some mileage under the locos to iron out any issues.

 

As for the Hull trains - they were decimated to a single run with an HST under sectorisation in 1990 / 1991 so it’s not as though the use of a 91 south of Doncaster was a long term thing (particularly once the wires got to Edinburgh.

 

Similarly the Peterborough trains were technically NSE services (not InterCity ones) and the use of 91s on them was basically for driver training / loco testing - again sectorisation and completion of the full ECML electrification saw an end to that.

 

So although I was wrong to say that the 91s were only used in revenue service with M3s and Mk4s - as a generalisation this is still correct. The fact that there were a few ‘oddball’ workings during the clashes introduction into service doesn’t change that and from a modellers perspective the timeframe she be you could accurately portray the 91s hauling such services is very limited.

 

 

[e30ftw]

Was this  wishful BR thinking at the time, or was it part of the sales pitch to government. In order that they would not be pure express passenger but more multi role locomotives in order to improve the odds of it being funded?

[Wolf27]

23 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Yup.

 

To reiterate the 91s have NEVER hauled (or pushed) anything other than the Mk4s or the MK3 + HST power car acting as a DVT) in revenue earning service.

 

Any pictures of them with anything else are commissioning / post works testing runs.

Pretty sure one hauled a parcels service out of York around 92/93. There was a pic in Rail mag.