Were trap points ever installed on the Wisbech and Upwell Tramway?

[Dungrange]

I think the answer to this is no, but I just want to check that no-one knows differently.

 

Looking at 25 inch Ordnance Survey maps (for example, https://maps.nls.uk/view/114484330, which was published in 1906) seems to suggest that there were no trap points separating the goods facilities from the passenger line.  Of course that could just mean that the surveyor didn't include them in the map, so I can't take that as definitive evidence, even if it suggestive that there never was.

 

Similarly, there are track plans in Peter Paye's book 'The Wisbech and Upwell Tramway', published by The Oakwood Press (2009).  Again, none of these diagrams show trap points at any of the depots.  Again, it's not definitive evidence that they were never fitted, but again suggests that may be the case.

 

Finally, there are a few photographs that definitely show locations without trap points.  Peter Paye's book includes one at Boyce's Bridge and one at Outwell Basin, both of which clearly show the locations at which I would expect to see a trap point on a mainline railway.  There isn't a trap point in either photograph.  However, these photographs are from the 1950s and 1960s, which is long after the passenger service ended on 31 December 1927 and therefore long after they would have be required on a mainline railway.  Therefore, while I can be certain that there were no trap points in BR days, it's not inconceivable that there could have been trap points in the early days that were removed during maintenance following the withdrawal of the passenger service.

 

My gut feeling tells me that they were never fitted on this line, but does anyone know differently, or can anyone confirm that my assumption is correct?

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, Dungrange said:

 ... Looking at 25 inch Ordnance Survey maps (for example, https://maps.nls.uk/view/114484330, which was published in 1906) seems to suggest that there were no trap points separating the goods facilities from the passenger line.  ... Similarly, there are track plans in Peter Paye's book 'The Wisbech and Upwell Tramway', published by The Oakwood Press (2009). ...

Are traps shown, on either source, where the tramway interfaces with the 'big railway' ? ....... might indicate whether the cartographer normally includes/excludes them.

[Michael Hodgson]

It was built by the GER under the Tramways Act 1870 before the Light Railways Act was passed, and I don't think tramways were required to have them.  I don't know whether its legal status changed from being a tramway on transfer to subsequent owners (LNER/BR), but I suspect not.  So I agree it probably didn't have them.

[bécasse]

25" OS maps don't show traps unless they lead into a spur (which is very rare).

There were no trap points on Wisbech & Upwell Tramway even when passenger trams operated and, indeed, each point was operated by its own lever. It is just possible that there may have been the odd scotch block on sidings to prevent the movement of vans by wind, the GER were a known user of scotches, but I have never seen photographic evidence of one on the W&U.

[Nearholmer]

No statutory or BoT requirement for them on tramways, which rely for safety on ‘line of sight’ and speed limitation, so if a wagon escaped, the tram driver would be assumed to spot the obstruction, and stop short. 
 

But, that isn’t the same as saying there weren’t any, because some may have been provided simply to prevent operational disruption and financial loss (damage to wagons etc).

 

If you can find the sectional appendix covering the line, it might require spragging or scotching, or special attention to handbrakes.

[MarcD]

Having gone through everything I have on the W&U I can't see any evidence of catch points. It's very possible that there lack is down to it being a tramway and not a "railway".

Marc 

[Dungrange]

26 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Are traps shown, on either source, where the tramway interfaces with the 'big railway' ? ....... might indicate whether the cartographer normally includes/excludes them.

 

Well, looking at the OS maps, there are points that perform a trap function shown at many locations, but it may be that these are the full point type where the trap leads to either a buffer stop or sand drag.  I would however expect a trap point at the north end of the station at Long Sutton (on the Midland and Great Northern Joint Railway), but nothing is shown on the OS map at this location - https://maps.nls.uk/view/114654108.  It is possible that one wasn't provided in reality because of the gradient, but it may also indicate that the cartographer didn't show trap points when they didn't extend as far as the common crossing.  The diagrams in Peter Paye's book seem to align with the OS maps, so for example a trap is shown at the Wisbech Harbour Junction, but I haven't seen a photograph to show what that looked like in reality.

 

31 minutes ago, bécasse said:

25" OS maps don't show traps unless they lead into a spur (which is very rare).

 

That would seem to align with the example at Long Sutton - ie true trap points (ie the single or double blade types that don't extend past the common crossing) aren't shown.  Therefore, their absence on the W&U isn't evidence that they didn't exist.

 

However, it seem that the consensus is that they weren't required / provided.  I just don't want to build a model based on the W&U and then someone ask me why there is no trap point.

[Nearholmer]

I know there was a discussion of pretty much the same topic in another thread, but I can’t find it. I remember it because it got me looking very closely at how the interface with “the railway proper” at Wisbech was dealt with, and I drew out a diagram of it.

 

I will keep searching!

 

EDIT: False memory syndrome! I found the discussion, and the diagram was from the SRS, and showed how Wisbech station had a “railway side” and a “tramway side”, separated by trapping. The discussion was about FPLs, and the fact that the W&U had none, because, like trapping and s lot of other things, they weren’t required on a tramway. IIRC, it did have one signalled level crossing, with I think a gate on one side of the road only, on the outskirts of Wisbech, where it dived across Elm Road close to a LC on the main line, so would presumably constituted a potential danger to traffic queuing for that. Apparently, the signalman from the box that controlled the mainline LC (Wisbech Harbour Junction) was responsible for the tramway crossing too, and flag-signalled trams over it, and I think opened and shut the one gate, although photographs of the later period seem to show the gate left permanently open (and that it opened ‘inwards’, onto GER property, rather than outwards across the road).

 

You can just see the tramway sneaking into his signalling diagram at the bottom left:

 

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Dungrange said:

 

Well, looking at the OS maps, there are points that perform a trap function shown at many locations, but it may be that these are the full point type where the trap leads to either a buffer stop or sand drag.  I would however expect a trap point at the north end of the station at Long Sutton (on the Midland and Great Northern Joint Railway), but nothing is shown on the OS map at this location - https://maps.nls.uk/view/114654108. 

 

Signal box diagrams (where available) are a better indication than OS maps as to whetehr or not traps existed

The SRS has a good many box diagrams, but by no means all https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwe/S748.htm

[Nearholmer]

And, I doubt there ever were any covering the W&U beyond Wisbech, because tramways don’t have signal boxes.

 

The SRS used to have a low res copy of Wisbech station box diagram on its website, but I can’t find it there now.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Nearholmer

[bécasse]

There was a spur leading forward from the tramway platform at Wisbech station which would have acted as a trap but similar spurs are by no means uncommon off of ordinary branch line platforms at junction stations. Trams could also run direct from the tramway to the "big railway" side of the island platform and that connection was effectively trapped by the route into the normal tramway platform, again exactly what one expect had the tramway been an ordinary branch line. Connections from the tramway sidings on to the "passenger" tramway line at Wisbech station were all effectively trapped by the provision of spurs exactly as one might expect.

 

Away from Wisbech station, as I have already stated, there were no trap points anywhere on the tramway and all the points were operated by adjacent single levers, there were no "crossover pairs" even where the layout appeared to incorporate a crossover. 

 

 

[LNERGE]

On 27/08/2023 at 22:14, Nearholmer said:

I know there was a discussion of pretty much the same topic in another thread, but I can’t find it. I remember it because it got me looking very closely at how the interface with “the railway proper” at Wisbech was dealt with, and I drew out a diagram of it.

 

I will keep searching!

 

EDIT: False memory syndrome! I found the discussion, and the diagram was from the SRS, and showed how Wisbech station had a “railway side” and a “tramway side”, separated by trapping. The discussion was about FPLs, and the fact that the W&U had none, because, like trapping and s lot of other things, they weren’t required on a tramway. IIRC, it did have one signalled level crossing, with I think a gate on one side of the road only, on the outskirts of Wisbech, where it dived across Elm Road close to a LC on the main line, so would presumably constituted a potential danger to traffic queuing for that. Apparently, the signalman from the box that controlled the mainline LC (Wisbech Harbour Junction) was responsible for the tramway crossing too, and flag-signalled trams over it, and I think opened and shut the one gate, although photographs of the later period seem to show the gate left permanently open (and that it opened ‘inwards’, onto GER property, rather than outwards across the road).

 

You can just see the tramway sneaking into his signalling diagram at the bottom left:

 

 

There is a little trap on this diagram. Signal 11 couldn't be cleared with the main line gates shut to road. If you were modelling this location with trains on both lines the gates would have to work..

[Nearholmer]

Aha, that’s the thing I was referring to above, but I hadn’t properly understood what the interlock did - makes perfect sense as a way of controlling the risk of road vehicles getting pounced on by a train jumping out from a thicket, although they must still have had to deploy a flag-man on the less protected side.

 

As I noted back up thread, photos of this location in goods only days suggest to me that maybe this interlock and the associated signal 11 were decommissioned at some stage prior to traffic ceasing altogether, but maybe I’ve misinterpreted what I’m seeing.

 

Have you got the diagram for the station area that you could show us; I’ve deleted the bootleg copy I had.

 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Nearholmer

[LNERGE]

Considering everything is stored on a tiny little chip, and I know exactly where that is, the whereabouts within said chip is a bit more of mystery. I will go and rummage.

[LNERGE]

Good grief it was where i was expecting it...

[LNERGE]

https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/archive/collections/aerial-photos/record/EPW039206