A 00 industrial shunting micro for beginners

[009 micro modeller]

On 08/09/2023 at 23:09, Nearholmer said:

A lot of shunting layouts are unconvincing, because they involve too much shunting, but one way to justify a lot of wagon shuffling without stretching plausibility as far as is customary would be to include a wagon tippler, especially an end tippler, because unlike a rotary you can’t shunt a rake of wagons through those. It would also be fun to build, and interesting to watch.

I’ve sometimes thought an end tippler might be quite good because, as you say, the need to individually unload each wagon justifies the sort of intensive shunting that might look unrealistic otherwise. This is something that bothered me (and others) about my cake box challenge quarry layout (with wagons being loaded, rather than unloaded), because in reality to load a rake of skip wagons you’d just arrange the loading chute so that the whole train could be pushed through rather than having it at the end of the siding and doing one wagon at a time. It’s also why I’m doing transporter wagons for my current project (which has its own thread in the micro layouts section), since they also (depending on the design) need to be individually unloaded from the end.

 

Looking into set-ups (admittedly mostly NG mine railways, but also some standard gauge) that used end-tipping wagons, the one issue I did have was that rather than using two sidings, with the tippler/tipping dock on one side and the loco then putting the empties out of the way on the other one, lots of them seemed to use a sort of loop, with a very short headshunt at the end feeding into the tippler, into which the wagons were propelled, and then the empty wagons rolling back by gravity or hand shunting into the other side of the loop, which is slightly harder to recreate in model form.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, and some used capstans and cable too. The tip heads where turf was unloaded on the Bord na Mona railways in Ireland were like that. I only say a couple in operation, most turf extraction (as opposed to milled peat) having ended in the 1980s, but by golly was it a rapid-fire, crash, bang, wallop operation! You definitely watched from a distance, what with wagons and wire ropes flying about.

 

Another “one at a time” operation was wagon hoists from viaducts down to coal and goods yards at various places in London, but from what I can work out most of that was by rope snd capstan, rather than loco, too.

[009 micro modeller]

56 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Yes, and some used capstans and cable too. The tip heads where turf was unloaded on the Bord na Mona railways in Ireland were like that. I only say a couple in operation, most turf extraction (as opposed to milled peat) having ended in the 1980s, but by golly was it a rapid-fire, crash, bang, wallop operation! You definitely watched from a distance, what with wagons and wire ropes flying about.

To go back to your example, what sort of layout did Corrall’s use? Also, off the top of my head I can’t think of anywhere on UK standard gauge that used end-tipping where the wagon body itself actually tips, although possibly some contractors’ or internal user quarry wagons were like this (there were plenty with tipplers of course). On the other hand, narrow gauge also has quirks that would complicate the sort of end-tipping arrangement I was looking at, such as wagons with a small inbuilt turntable to allow them to tip out at the side or end as needed.

 

I thought a lot of Bord na Mona tipplers were side-tipping, either with capstans or a low-height loco to move the whole rake through, but perhaps not all were like this?

 

56 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Another “one at a time” operation was wagon hoists from viaducts down to coal and goods yards at various places in London, but from what I can work out most of that was by rope snd capstan, rather than loco, too.

An interesting example of this in London (which I think was loco-worked, and with the electric shunting loco receiving at the bottom of the hoist as well) was the Waterloo & City line hoist, which at one point handled both tube stock and coal wagons for power generation.

Edited September 11, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[Nearholmer]

49 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Also, off the top of my head I can’t think of anywhere on UK standard gauge that used end-tipping where the wagon body itself actually tips

Neither can I, although I suspect there was some specialist application somewhere that did.

 

49 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I thought a lot of Bord na Mona tipplers were side-tipping, either with capstans or a low-height loco to move the whole rake through, but perhaps not all were like this?

BnM used several different systems at difference places at different times:

 

- turf (sod peat) for domestic and industrial fuel went onwards from the bogs by road, and in limited cases by rail. It was carried in four-wheel end-tip wagons that look like wire cages. They were end tipped from tip-heads using a combination of capstan haulage to move the rake forward and gravity to take individual wagons back off the tippler;

 

- turf for generating stations was carried in similar wagons, a bit beefier, on bogies, and at least initially the wagon bodies were lifted to s great height and the contents dumped into fuel bunkers using large gantry hoists, so rather like s containerised handling system. I think, but am not sure, that after the first turf-fired station (Portarlington) the unloading may have been different, possibly a ground-level end-tippler;

 

- milled peat (the sort of thing you get in a sack at a garden centre) was initially transported in 4W gable-bottomed dump cars, emptied into a pit and then moved by conveyor. I think the 4W wagons were only used at the first briquette-making plant, which actually pre-dated BnM;

 

- one horticultural peat packing factory used bogie gable-bottomed cars, which were an only slightly modified version of a wagon standard in USSR, again dumped into s pit;

 

- milled peat for generating stations, the later briquette plants, and most horticultural plants was carried in open bogie gondolas, which were emptied in rotary tipplers without splitting the rake, the coupling links having swivels to permit the train to stay as one.

 

I’ve skated over some very early operations, and a lot of detail, but that should give you some idea.

 

I’ve not seen or heard of a low-height loco, although some sites used various forms of creepers to shove the wagons through the rotary tipplers.

 

49 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

the Waterloo & City line hoist

 

The W&C operation I’m very familiar with, having participated in it when I was a trainee engineer. In the early days there were actually two lifts: one down from the west side of Waterloo main-line, and another up to the power station coal bunkers on the eastern side of the main-line station, but the latter was taken out of use when power generation was transferred to Durnsford Road. The initial W&C electric shunting and rescue loco went to Durnsford Road to shunt the coal ramp there. 
 

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Pacific231G]

eaw020006

5 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

There are a couple of threads on here about the yard, but all the images and links are defunct, which is a great pity. I once went there to have a nose in the 1980s, I think on the same day I went for a ride on the Hythe Pier railway, but cannot for the life of me recall the track layout.

 

Another line that had a loco shuffling small cuts of wagons, so a lot of shunting per square yard, was the cement works near Southerham Junction, Lewes. I think cuts were short there because of gradient and curvature.  It had gas-fired kilns when I remember it, but in earlier years it must have taken in coal as well as despatched cement.

 

 

Unfortunately, the NLS collection only has 25 inch maps up to to 1933 and I think the track layout  must have changed a lot between then and the 1960s-1980s

This is the line into Belvidere shipyard

In photos from the 1960s there is a second large gasholder where the 1933 map shows Allotment Gardens. This also appears in a 1948 Aerofilms aerial photo (eaw020006) that shows the site in great detail. Belvidere Shipyard became Dibden's Wharf and in 1948 it was already a coal yard though with more of the former shipyard buildings than seem to be there later. There is no sign of a coal tippler in 1948 but there are a couple of rail mounted dockside portal cranes with grabs for unloading coal from ships.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Pacific231G

[Nick C]

15 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

eaw020006

Unfortunately, the NLS collection only has 25 inch maps up to to 1933 and I think the track layout  must have changed a lot between then and the 1960s-1980s

This is the line into Belvidere shipyard

In photos from the 1960s there is a second large gasholder where the 1933 map shows Allotment Gardens. This also appears in a 1948 Aerofilms aerial photo (eaw020006) that shows the site in great detail. Belvidere Shipyard became Dibden's Wharf and in 1948 it was already a coal yard though with more of the former shipyard buildings than seem to be there later. There is no sign of a coal tippler in 1948 but there are a couple of rail mounted dockside portal cranes with grabs for unloading coal from ships.

There's a 1950 map of the wharf on the Southampton Planning portal: https://planningpublicaccess.southampton.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=5000026FUL

 

It doesn't show the location of the tippler though.

[tractionman]

On 02/09/2023 at 15:39, Rich Uncle Skeleton said:

I’m thinking about planning a small layout for mainly industrial Locos to run on, like the Hattons Barclay I’ve preordered. It would preferably need to be 1.5 x 3 feet but I can stretch to 4 if less is infeasible. My rolling stock consists of five 16t mineral wagons and 4 vans, which would dictate the setting. Track plan wise I’d prefer to keep it simple, but I’m not adverse to using a loco lift as a sector plate substitute to save space.
 

are there any existing track plans and or layouts that would fit this criteria? 

 

My copy of IRR arrived today and on page 214 is a photograph of 1947 of the line that served Atlantic Works at Altrincham, it caught my eye especially because of the complex trackwork and backdrop of terraced houses so I checked out NLS and the OS 25" map...

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18.0&lat=53.39960&lon=-2.35457&layers=168&b=1

 

which shows a goods shed served by two sidings and a third, from which there is one kick-back line that cuts across the sidings and heads under a rail bridge into the works--the double-track main line is on an embankment and could be used as a scenic break as well as to 'stage' something more main-line to go with some industrials and wagons shunting in the foreground.

 

It's quite compact, and looks model-able in a small space :-)

 

It'd be just over 6 foot long (yellow oblong) but the layout overall could be shortened by making the goods shed half-relief (red oblong), using the placing of buildings to provide view blockers at each end, eg the terraced houses could be shifted more to the left to hide the running-in lines of the sidings (ie where the arrow is), and the layout arranged to be viewed from the north, ie looking towards the main line/embankment as a backdrop:

 

 

 

From NLS--Re-use: CC-BY

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by tractionman
add image

[Rich Uncle Skeleton]

On 12/09/2023 at 16:55, tractionman said:

 

My copy of IRR arrived today and on page 214 is a photograph of 1947 of the line that served Atlantic Works at Altrincham, it caught my eye especially because of the complex trackwork and backdrop of terraced houses so I checked out NLS and the OS 25" map...

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18.0&lat=53.39960&lon=-2.35457&layers=168&b=1

 

which shows a goods shed served by two sidings and a third, from which there is one kick-back line that cuts across the sidings and heads under a rail bridge into the works--the double-track main line is on an embankment and could be used as a scenic break as well as to 'stage' something more main-line to go with some industrials and wagons shunting in the foreground.

 

It's quite compact, and looks model-able in a small space :-)

 

It'd be just over 6 foot long (yellow oblong) but the layout overall could be shortened by making the goods shed half-relief (red oblong), using the placing of buildings to provide view blockers at each end, eg the terraced houses could be shifted more to the left to hide the running-in lines of the sidings (ie where the arrow is), and the layout arranged to be viewed from the north, ie looking towards the main line/embankment as a backdrop:

 

 

 

From NLS--Re-use: CC-BY

 

Perfect!

 

and that double line gives me the excuse to have bigger engines like the upcoming S160…

[Rich Uncle Skeleton]

On 12/09/2023 at 16:55, tractionman said:

 

My copy of IRR arrived today and on page 214 is a photograph of 1947 of the line that served Atlantic Works at Altrincham, it caught my eye especially because of the complex trackwork and backdrop of terraced houses so I checked out NLS and the OS 25" map...

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18.0&lat=53.39960&lon=-2.35457&layers=168&b=1

 

which shows a goods shed served by two sidings and a third, from which there is one kick-back line that cuts across the sidings and heads under a rail bridge into the works--the double-track main line is on an embankment and could be used as a scenic break as well as to 'stage' something more main-line to go with some industrials and wagons shunting in the foreground.

 

It's quite compact, and looks model-able in a small space :-)

 

It'd be just over 6 foot long (yellow oblong) but the layout overall could be shortened by making the goods shed half-relief (red oblong), using the placing of buildings to provide view blockers at each end, eg the terraced houses could be shifted more to the left to hide the running-in lines of the sidings (ie where the arrow is), and the layout arranged to be viewed from the north, ie looking towards the main line/embankment as a backdrop:

 

 

 

From NLS--Re-use: CC-BY

 

What’s the building in the red marked S?

[tractionman]

1 hour ago, Rich Uncle Skeleton said:

What’s the building in the red marked S?

SB stands for Signal Box but I don't think the letters relate to the building they're written over as it's an odd size and shape for a signal box and there's a siding running into it, so my guess is the building is a shed of some kind, in the goods yard, and the abbreviation for the signal box refers to the building closer to the running lines to the right?

 

Edit--on second thought, I'm thinking not a building such as a shed as it's not hatched so perhaps a platform in the yard?

Edited September 13, 2023 by tractionman

[Nearholmer]

I read it as a side and end loading dock.

 

This is indeed a truly excellent subject for a model. What did Atlantic Works do/make, and did they have their own loco?

 

Aerial view from BfA, but frustratingly not a very clear one:

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Nearholmer

[tractionman]

IRR 254 (Sept 2023) has a picture of Bagnall 12" 0-4-0 ST No. 2612 of 1939, bought by George Richards & Co for its Atlantic Works at Broadheath (p.214), it's this picture (taken by Alex Appleton in 1947) that so caught my eye when I was leafing through the issue. IRS membership definitely worth the money!

 

George Richards & Co., Ltd.
Manchester; Broadheath, England, U.K.
Manufacturer Class: Wood Working Machinery & Metal Working Machinery

 

Inf on the company and works at http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=2985#:~:text=Founded as a private company,Tilghmans Patent Sand Blast Co.

 

some more inf on the works with pictures here

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/George_Richards_and_Co

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by tractionman
1939 not 1938!

[Nearholmer]

I’m a bit of a cheat: I let my IRS membership lapse about five years ago because the mag was too full of collieries for my tastes, and because my ‘industrial’ interest is really narrow gauge, but I still belong to the email group!

[Pacific231G]

On 11/09/2023 at 17:18, Nearholmer said:

I’m going to keep at this tippler thing, and remind people that Corall’s at Southampton kept a shunting engine busy, with small cuts of wagons in a cramped location.

 

 

It's clear that the tippler is not at the end of a siding and you can see the corner of the previous wagon at the left-hand edge of the photo. That makes the shunting quite interesting as each wagon that has been tippled has to be pushed off it, the next wagon has then to be placed, uncoupled and the rest of the cut pulled away. Looking at the trackplan from the planning documents the only rough positions for it that I can find where curves of the adjoining tracks fit are those I've marked in red. One of those requires an additional track to be laid so the one on the eastern side of the site seems the more likely especially as there seems to be a ship to the left of the tippler and I think the buildings in the far background may well be those on the other side of the Itchen

 

 

[Flying Pig]

A similar tippler at Lincoln in April 1969 (by David Ford on Flickr).  Note the crossover on the near side, the empties on the right and the condition of the various railheads which suggest it was a straight-through operation.  I guess locos would not have been allowed over the tippler.

 

 

[Pacific231G]

17 hours ago, tractionman said:

SB stands for Signal Box but I don't think the letters relate to the building they're written over as it's an odd size and shape for a signal box and there's a siding running into it, so my guess is the building is a shed of some kind, in the goods yard, and the abbreviation for the signal box refers to the building closer to the running lines to the right?

 

Edit--on second thought, I'm thinking not a building such as a shed as it's not hatched so perhaps a platform in the yard?

In crowded locations the legend for buildings does seem to get a bit distant but the S.B. legend is consistent with those on the same line so I think the actual signalbox is on the platform to the left of the station building and what may be a lamp room where I've marked it in red

In the goods yard, which is at a lower level than the station,  you've got an end and side loading dock (where the S.B. legend is) , a fairly large two road goods shed and what may be a short mileage siding (where the hard standing is marked north of the goods shed. I assume that wagons to and from the engineering works would be left on the left hand end of that siding and brought to and from it by the works loco, or perhaps earlier judging by the wagon turntables, a horse. I can't really see the size of the Atlantic Works then justifying a loco but looking at the 1936 OS map  https://maps.nls.uk/view/114581806 you can see that that the Atlantic Works have expanded massively and there's even what looks like a small loco shed in the north east corner of the new works to the north of the mainline.

The signal box has now disappeared from the station (where it can only have been a small block post)  with a new box larger replacing both it and a second box that originally controlled the entrance to the now presumably much busier goods branch.

Looking beyond the station the Linotype works (vital to newpaper production) on the Bridgewater Canal a little to the south had also expanded (but without a rail connection) and, rather tragically, there was a "radium works (polish &c)" on the sounth bank of the canal a little to the south east of the station. One can only wonder what exposure to radium did to both its workers and customers.

All that light industry probably explains why a minor station needed such a large goods shed.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Pacific231G

[tractionman]

Interesting, thanks, yes I see more buildings have also appeared on Davenport Lane by 1936, associated with the works, and offering more scope for hiding the edge of a layout on the western side.

[37114]

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

A similar tippler at Lincoln in April 1969 (by David Ford on Flickr).  Note the crossover on the near side, the empties on the right and the condition of the various railheads which suggest it was a straight-through operation.  I guess locos would not have been allowed over the tippler.

 

 

Great scene, crying out to be modelled!

[Flying Pig]

Whilst on the subject of compact coal facilities, the remains of Norwich Victoria were used as a coal depot and have been mentioned on RMweb more than once.

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

I guess locos would not have been allowed over the tippler.

Does that suggest though that a bit of hand and/or gravity shunting might have been involved, which is possibly a bit difficult to accurately recreate in model form?

[Pacific231G]

On 14/09/2023 at 10:31, Pacific231G said:

It's clear that the tippler is not at the end of a siding and you can see the corner of the previous wagon at the left-hand edge of the photo. That makes the shunting quite interesting as each wagon that has been tippled has to be pushed off it, the next wagon has then to be placed, uncoupled and the rest of the cut pulled away. Looking at the trackplan from the planning documents the only rough positions for it that I can find where curves of the adjoining tracks fit are those I've marked in red. One of those requires an additional track to be laid so the one on the eastern side of the site seems the more likely especially as there seems to be a ship to the left of the tippler and I think the buildings in the far background may well be those on the other side of the Itchen

 

 

 

There is another image of the tippler at Dibdens Wharf here.

https://live.staticflickr.com/7035/6454428569_ef2b9e675c_b.jpg

I assume it was taken by the same photographer at the same time as this one

https://live.staticflickr.com/7032/6454429733_e213dc7cb9_b.jpg

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Pacific231G

[Flying Pig]

On 14/09/2023 at 14:16, 009 micro modeller said:

Does that suggest though that a bit of hand and/or gravity shunting might have been involved, which is possibly a bit difficult to accurately recreate in model form?

 

Quite possibly, though it isn't completely clear how it was shunted.  In any case, despite the rabbit hole this thread has wandered down, I'm not convinced that coal is necessarily the best subject for this kind of layout, nor that worrying about complex mechanical unloading equipment is ideal for a beginner, per the thread title.

[009 micro modeller]

13 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

I'm not convinced that coal is necessarily the best subject for this kind of layout, nor that worrying about complex mechanical unloading equipment is ideal for a beginner, per the thread title.

I’m inclined to agree, I think the tippler discussions were a way to provide a bit more justification for the sort of shunting that goes on on ‘shunting puzzle’ type layouts. As for whether coal is a good subject, I’m finding with my own current project (which has a few complex elements but is basically a shunting puzzle) that having a diversity of wagon types/loads helps because then it’s more plausible to be individually rearranging them and forming different trains with them.

[Pacific231G]

On 14/09/2023 at 10:55, Flying Pig said:

A similar tippler at Lincoln in April 1969 (by David Ford on Flickr).  Note the crossover on the near side, the empties on the right and the condition of the various railheads which suggest it was a straight-through operation.  I guess locos would not have been allowed over the tippler.

 

 

I don't know about the Lincoln tipper but I just found this image of Corrall Queen loco passing over the tippler

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52467480@N08/6454426137/sizes/l/

If you're interested in this location, George Woods took a very good sequence sequence of photos at Corrall's in Southampton in 1971. They're alll in his album of British Industrial locos on flickr and, though they focus on the loco, show the atmosphere of the place very well

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52467480@N08/albums/72157628278328931/page1

Edited September 18, 2023 by Pacific231G

[Rich Uncle Skeleton]

Thank you all for your feedback, keep it coming! I suppose there’s nothing that says I can’t have a low relief warehouse/factory at the back and at the front some sort of coal bunker.