Can this Class 25 be fitted with a sound chip?

[6990WitherslackHall]

I recently brought a N gauge loco from a trader who was selling model railway items at Pickering station on the NYMR during the Annual Steam Gala yesterday.

 

The model I brought is Graham Farish model of Class 25/1 D5222, the prototype of which is preserved and currently stored at the Caledonian Railway.

 

 

The model was first released in 2013, so ten years ago, and it has 6-pin DCC socket but question is, can it be fitted with sound though? 

Edited September 23, 2023 by 6990WitherslackHall

[Kris]

If there is space to fit a 6pin sound decoder in, and a speaker then yes. 

The Zimo speaker size can be found below. https://www.digitrains.co.uk/shop-by-product/locomotive-decoders/sound/6-pin-mini-sound-decoder.html

[6990WitherslackHall]

Ok, so I've clicked on the link and had a look. 

 

 

 

The technical details of the sound decoder. 

 

 

 

While I was on the Digitrains website, I took the chance to look up some soundfiles for the Class 25. I presume it'll be uploaded to the sound decoder when I buy the two together. 

 

[n9]

The larger issue is likely to be whether there is enough space inside the loco to fit a speaker as well as the sound chip.

 

This Youchoos guide for a Class 25 (there are others, so check for your exact model) suggests a large amount of carving up of the chasis is necessary.

[Kris]

2 hours ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

Ok, so I've clicked on the link and had a look. 

 

 

 

The technical details of the sound decoder. 

 

 

 

While I was on the Digitrains website, I took the chance to look up some soundfiles for the Class 25. I presume it'll be uploaded to the sound decoder when I buy the two together. 

 

Yes you would need to purchase the sound decoder and the sound file. There may be other options around, this was just the first one that I found. 

[woodenhead]

13 hours ago, n9 said:

The larger issue is likely to be whether there is enough space inside the loco to fit a speaker as well as the sound chip.

 

This Youchoos guide for a Class 25 (there are others, so check for your exact model) suggests a large amount of carving up of the chasis is necessary.

There is space if you remove the cab interior.

 

I've done 2 class 25s and 2 class 24s using the even smaller MS500N with a tiny sugarcube speaker from Digitrains.  Removing one cab interior made space for the speaker and it was not noticeable from the outside.  The MS500 also was slim enought not to impinge on the body.  I did recently add a Lais Stay Alive in the other cab space on one class 25 but it was tight and it took a few attempts to get the body on again without knocking out the light prism for the tail lights.  I am going to give a single Tantalum a go soon on another as the Farish bo-bo locos are actually great performers so I probably don't need masses of stay alive in them beyond the quarter of a second from a single Tantalum.

[n9]

9 hours ago, woodenhead said:

There is space if you remove the cab interior.

Yes, there's usually, though not always, a way to make space inside a loco if it doesn't have sufficient space inside to begin with. Then it's a question of what you're willing to sacrifice to get the components in. Into that formula you can put the sizes of the various compatible sound decoders and speakers, and that also has consequences. For example the smaller the speaker, the tinnier it's likely to sound. (Sound quality is a hugely subjective question in itself, and a speaker that sounds wonderful to some, won't to others.) For me for instance, I'd rather grind away metal than remove a cab interior if that's the only choice I have. There are other options too though, like fitting components into rolling stock and tenders. Each option has consequences and will be more work or less work to do.

 

My main point though was that I'm not sure if the OP is aware that this extra work is likely needed; it's often not just a case of buying the right chip and speaker, opening the loco, and wiring it in, especially in the smaller scales, and more so with older models.

[woodenhead]

I've tried so far to stick to the less invasive methods.

 

I accepted with my 08, that was the previous incarnation not the Next18 one, that to fit stay alive I had to take some metal away in the cab area - mine isn't sound fitted as I'd previously hardwired it with a tiny Zimo.

 

The 04 is next in line for the treatment, the first attempt with an old iron melted or shorted the chip and now it doesn't work correctly, I've a replacement chip awaiting wiring in and I've got a tantalum to try rather than a Lais SA as it may be enough for what I want i.e. getting over a station throat. without stopping.  If that doesn't work I'll go back to plan A - wiring to a companion wagon for a Lais.

 

Farish DMUs come with a ready speaker space that I've utilised, I am going to put the Stay Alives into the passenger compartment, it won't be noticeable to me and I will be the only person looking at it closely.

 

The 25s and 24s it is a quick removal of the cabs, I think I may be doing the same with my Hymeks,, 37 and 47s, but the Warship and Western might be a different kettle of fish, rather spacious cab areas that kind of stand out - I'll leave them till last.  The 25s sound fine to me, I get the characteristic sound even if it doesn't sound like an SLW 25.

[n9]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

The 04 is next in line for the treatment ...

At the risk of going a bit off-topic, does that treatment include sound or was it just the stay-alives? I have an 03 which I think must be equally tiny internally, and short of kitting it out with a roof rack I couldn't see how to get a speaker in there.

[woodenhead]

11 minutes ago, n9 said:

At the risk of going a bit off-topic, does that treatment include sound or was it just the stay-alives? I have an 03 which I think must be equally tiny internally, and short of kitting it out with a roof rack I couldn't see how to get a speaker in there.

 Both the shunters are an MX615 non sound chip.  I did consider the permanently coupled wagon with speaker and stay alive when I damaged the first chip in the 04, but decided I'd rather just try and keep it all contained in the loco.

 

Currently playing with a Lais and a 101 DMU on an MX649N - the LAIS has gone into the front vestibule, the speaker wires need chopping back then all soldering together.  But first a birthday meal for the wife and then if I get time later I'll come back to the DMU on my desk.

[n9]

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

But first a birthday meal for the wife

Have a great birthday bash!

[woodenhead]

It went well but only got back at 9pm so I think I will save the soldering for tomorrow.

[woodenhead]

@n9

Here is the 101 with stay alive in the vestibule.  For the OP I’ll post an image of a 25 when I add the Tantalum later in the week.

[DavidLong]

I've done a 24 and 25. Really basic conversions as I don't do lights. 1960s and 1970s they are pretty much a waste of time - 15w candle power at best!

 

 

 

Bought from YouChoos. MS480 decoder + Micro cube 5 speaker + 2x Tantlums. Circuit board is removed and two of board mounts used for attaching the red and black wires. the advantage of the Zimo sound decoders is that you can connect the tantalums directly. They are mounted on a small piece of thin PCB and connected with the grey wires. The purple wires go to the solder tabs on the speaker. All soldering done with a 0.8mm bit at 350 degrees C.

 

David

[woodenhead]

Post removed - embarrassing mistake made.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by woodenhead
Was not correct.

[n9]

12 hours ago, woodenhead said:

@n9

Here is the 101 with stay alive in the vestibule.  For the OP I’ll post an image of a 25 when I add the Tantalum later in the week.

 

Good job! I cheated with my 101 and got it with sound fitted (though no stay alive, that said, pickups seem more than good enough on it.)

 

Does your 04 suffer from side-to-side wobble as it picks up speed? My 03 does, but haven't got round yet to investigating. Still, it's one of my favourite locos by far!

 

Not sure if the OP is still around, since they haven't replied for a while. Still, I'm enjoying seeing what you and @DavidLong have done! Great stuff!

[woodenhead]

The 08 is wobbly but I've never noticed it with the 04.

 

The OP is around, I am sure he will comment at some stage.

[woodenhead]

Ok I did promise pics of an easy install sound on a Farish 25 with no need to remove any electrical components or do any milling.

 

I did not promise to not remove cab interiors 😄

 

Base set up MS500 and a sugarcube speaker - one cab interior removed to make space for the speaker.

 

Fitting Tantalums, I did a test fit with them on top of the circuit board and they did fit with the body down, however, once I added Kapton tape it went awry so I went all in and plucked out the other cab interior, lights are all still in situ at both ends though.

 

And with the body back on

 

However, the jury is most definitely out on how effective these Tantalums are, I've used two in this set up and I cannot see any result from them - if you lift the loco it stops immediately, the sound is straight out and it stutters something I don't get with a Lais. 

 

I'll give it a bit of a go, but I think I might be sticking with Lais unless stringing 4 Tantalums is the answer but for that I am still looking for the question.

[bandmbill]

I have used 5 tantalum caps and the SACC16 board with MX648 decoders - gives a short stay-alive in my 09 (9mm gauge 7mm/ft) 4 wheel locos successfully - 2 caps works with non-sound locos.

 

 

[woodenhead]

53 minutes ago, bandmbill said:

I have used 5 tantalum caps and the SACC16 board with MX648 decoders - gives a short stay-alive in my 09 (9mm gauge 7mm/ft) 4 wheel locos successfully - 2 caps works with non-sound locos.

 

 

Like I said, the jury is out at present, one thing is this loco is still set to work on DC and I wonder if that impacts the Stay Alive on a Tantalum - the Lais don't have an issue with the chip being configured to work on DC.

 

Does anyone know if that might be affecting things in this case?

[woodenhead]

I think I know what might be going wrong - the pre-wired Stay Alive on the MS500N is Common(+) and Ground.

 

This wiring set up is for higher capacitors through the STACO unit not for a couple of Tantalums wired directly, for this the MS500N has an additional pad - Capacitor(+).   Looks like I need to rewire the Tantalums.....I do hope they are ok.

[bandmbill]

The STAC03 is a bis step in energy storage - I am using them with MS500 decoders - they give a good amount of running time.

 

The STAC02 has a socket for an Next-18 decoder - all wired connections are made to the STAC02 board - I have used them 3 times so far - again they just work!

[woodenhead]

Rewired the Tantalums in the class 25 to the Capacitor(+) contact pad, added the spare Tantalum to make it a trio as Zimo state at least 470 thingies to add any benefit and each Tantalum is only 220 thingies.

 

It does appear to have an affect, I can see momentary motion when removing the model from track - I was not expecting Lais SA type performance, this is purely for short spots without contact.

 

However, I am a little worried the loco is shorting when running wrong line through the station throat - two points it does it on, it does not appear to be the easi-shunts so I am guessing it might be a back to back issue that only comes into play when the loco is going through the point and over the blades.  There is a little hump at the join between the single slip and the first of the points it shorts at, perhap it's pushing the wheel away from best alignment, something to look at but not a biggy as its only this loco and only wrong line, departing through the throat correctly it's fine.

 

Maybe next time I have a spare Tantalum I'll find a way to squeeze a second onto the 04, although I am wondering now if the one fitted is even doing anything as it too uses Common(+) as it's chip (MX615R) lacks the Capacitor(+) and a Tantalum has not control circuitry like a Lais does.  So I might be going back to the drawing board and finding a way to shimmy the chip and a Lais into the 04 cab area.

[Izzy]

A single 16v 220uF tantalum won’t do much else but perhaps keep the decoder alive, but it won’t even do that without the basic circuitry in place, a diode, resistor, and preferably 15/16v zener diode to prevent capacitor overload. I think all the newer MS sound decoders have this onboard now for 16v tantalum’s up to 1,000uF. Above that you still need to add the bits. With the MX series it’s only been the MX645/644 that had it onboard. 
 

With 660-880uF at medium speed the run-on is about a quarter to a third of a wheel revolution. At minimum speed it’s just enough to get over spots of dust and dirt but does seem to make a lot of difference even so. Locos are just more reliable and smoother running. It probably shows up more on ones that aren’t so good without them fitted. I haven’t fitted any to my bogie diesels yet as they don’t seem to need them. Diesel shunters and steam are where it does show I find.

 

Bob

[woodenhead]

@Izzy I made the mistake of forgetting that the Lais SA all come with the circuitry for charging/control and only my latest MS500 chips have the basic Capacitor(+) connection and control necessary to use Tantalum directly wired.

 

The 04 was a good runner and still is, but it was only when reread the documentation for the MS500 it dawned on me I had miswired the Tantalums on the 25 and that for the 04 it would not work at all.

 

So I think will drop my embarrassing 04 post and come back when I have corrected it with an actual stay alive than the current dummy stay alive set up I've created haha