Why was HS1 built with so much less fuss than HS2?

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

I don't think we'll see any work started in this decade.

The Voyagers will be long gone by then.

I don't think we'll ever see any work start for a lot (most?) of the things on that list.

 

My personal attitude incidentally is very simple - as Govt, by its own actions - is clearly not really interested in progressing towards Net Zero for transport and hasn't been ever since it announced its ideas, I will follow their lead.   Accordingly when I need to replace my car - if my wife can afford to pay for a replacement? - I shall seek out another one with an  internal combustion engine in full, but unspoken, support of what Govt does as opposed to what it says.

Edited October 5, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I don't think we'll ever see any work start for a lot (most?) of the things on that list.

 

My personal attitude incidentally is very simple - as Govt, by its own actions - is clearly not really interested in progressing towards Net Zero for transport and hasn't been ever since it announced its ideas, I will follow their lead.   Accordingly when I need to replace my car - if my wife can afford to pay for a replacement? - I shall seek out another one with an  internal combustion engine in full, but unspoken, support of what Govt does as opposed to what it says.

As I dont fancy waiting 3x 20 minutes to charge my car a £1a kw each way on a trip to manchester, and watch those amps dissapear on a cold day.. i’ll be sticking to diesel.

 

I saw a fight break out at a service station as people come to blows in the queue waiting for those short blast charging stations!

 

Everyone knows the country wont be ready for an electric switch by 2030.. the infrastructure doesn't exist, the technology isn't good enough and the electric costs too high.. inflating our way to net zero simply wont work.

[jjb1970]

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/229-early-risers/?do=findComment&comment=5286289

[Hobby]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Everyone knows the country wont be ready for an electric switch by 2030.. 

 

Hence they've changed it to 2035 (and counting!)...

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

As I dont fancy waiting 3x 20 minutes to charge my car a £1a kw each way on a trip to manchester, and watch those amps dissapear on a cold day.......

 

Why would you want to stop 3 times?

Where are you starting out from.

You can do the English south coast to Manchester on one charge with many EV models, although you are likely to need a stop anyway, for a toilet stop and some advisable rest.

Also, on journeys where you would need to recharge, you don't need to "fill up" in most cases.

 

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

...... the infrastructure doesn't exist,.....

 

Of course it exists.

There just isn't enough of it installed yet and the rate of improvement in provision, which is continuous, still isn't fast enough.

 

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

.......the technology isn't good enough .......

 

 

Which technology is that?

 

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

.........and the electric costs too high.. ...

 

Very true, particularly from public charging stations.

It doesn't help that the government levies 20% VAT on the 'leckie bought from these stations.

However, we are not going to see cheap fossil fuel any time soon.

Quite the opposite, it's going to get more and more expensive.

[class26]

19 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I don't think we'll ever see any work start for a lot (most?) of the things on that list.

 

My personal attitude incidentally is very simple - as Govt, by its own actions - is clearly not really interested in progressing towards Net Zero for transport and hasn't been ever since it announced its ideas, I will follow their lead.   Accordingly when I need to replace my car - if my wife can afford to pay for a replacement? - I shall seek out another one with an  internal combustion engine in full, but unspoken, support of what Govt does as opposed to what it says.

agreed, have just bought a new diesel Jag, it`s fantastic and I can achieve around 800 miles on a full tank (long journeys) . It`s some time before electric cars will manage that  

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, class26 said:

agreed, have just bought a new diesel Jag, …….

Your in a small group there.

Not many people buying Jags ( a company in deep doo-doo) and sales of new diesel cars are on the floor ( 3.9% of the market, year to date - 7.6% of the market when you add in the mild-hybrid diesels - down from 10.1% at this time last year and nearly 50% of the market only a few years ago).

 

 

.

[david.hill64]

20 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Your in a small group there.

Not many people buying Jags ( a company in deep doo-doo) and sales of new diesel cars are on the floor ( 3.9% of the market, year to date - 7.6% of the market when you add in the mild-hybrid diesels - down from 10.1% at this time last year and nearly 50% of the market only a few years ago).

 

 

.

If it is a new Jag it will be a diesel hybrid.  Still have waiting times of 6-9 months on most models.

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, class26 said:

agreed, have just bought a new diesel Jag, it`s fantastic and I can achieve around 800 miles on a full tank (long journeys) . It`s some time before electric cars will manage that  

 

There will never be a need for an EV to manage 800 miles without recharging.

How long does it take to drive 800 miles? With clear roads, about 12 hours. Could you really drive 12 hours non-stop? No chance. It would probably be a 2 day journey with at least 1 extra stop each day.

The key to making EVs work is to make charging available wherever you stop & make it fast enough that even a quick toilet break gives you 90 minutes driving time. A stop for lunch will give it enough time to charge for double that. These are the targets it needs to achieve. 250 miles is plenty for this.

The technology is there; Tesla have it right now. The infrastructure is not though; everyone needs access to it, but they don't yet.

It won't be there by 2035 either. There is just too much to do & not enough being done.

 

How did HS1 v HS2 drift to EVs?

[Jeremy Cumberland]

13 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

It doesn't help that the government levies 20% VAT on the 'leckie bought from these stations.

Of course they charge VAT; why on earth should they not? All electricity usage has VAT, as do all other motor fuels, as far as I am aware. If you are a business, and the mileage is for business use, you ought to be able to claim the VAT back, as with anything else.

 

Be thankful that you don't have to pay duty, too. I'm sure if the government could find a way, they'd add duty, but there's probably no easy way to apply this to charging your car at home.

[Ron Ron Ron]

3 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Of course they charge VAT; why on earth should they not? All electricity usage has VAT, ……..

I meant that as a comparison with the VAT rate you would pay for electricity bought at home, for charging your car as well.

 

It’s understandable that you would pay a higher commercial rate for the electricity bought at a charging station, but VAT is a government levy that throws up a discrepancy and doesn’t help the intended drive towards electrification of motoring.

Left hand versus right hand etc…

 

 

.

[meil]

Getting back to the original question - "Why was HS1 built with so much less fuss than HS2?"

 

CTRL was conceived by a private sector consortium but principally one consultant who took one look at what BR were up to and presented the route, as we now have, to the Government.

 

BR's moribund scheme was to deliver the trains to Waterloo with no feasible rail connections to the North.

 

The Delivery vehicle for CTRL was also private sector driven and it delivered the CTRL more or less on time and on budget.

 

In comparison HS2 is a project management disaster. If you list all things that Project Management should not do - HS2 has done.

[Hobby]

17 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I meant that as a comparison with the VAT rate you would pay for electricity bought at home, for charging your car as well.

 

It’s understandable that you would pay a higher commercial rate for the electricity bought at a charging station, but VAT is a government levy that throws up a discrepancy and doesn’t help the intended drive towards electrification of motoring.

Left hand versus right hand etc…

 

 

.

 

My understanding is that 20%vat is charged on basic cost of petrol, on top of that there is fuel duty and 20% vat is also charged on that. So ev users are gaining a considerable advantage already by only paying it once, not twice, and no fuel duty on electricity. 

 

Regards that 800 mile range, sometimes I feel that some EV supporters lose the plot! You know exactly what he was referring to, the ability to only have to spend 5 minutes every 800 miles to fill up, not have to worry about weather affecting the range too much and not have to worry about whether when you do have to stop for fuel having to queue ages for it. Yes the last one can be circumnavigated by planning where you stop, such as using a charging point off the motorway and not a services, but with ranges on affordable EVs currently being in the 150 to 300 range (on a good day) its not as flexible as a IC car.

 

The current difference between most EVs and IC cars is that the former dictate to you when you have to stop for fuel and for the latter it's you that dictates when to stop. When affordable EVs get ranges around 450 mile's in all weathers then we'll see a major shift. Together with better infrastructure as Ron says, that will swing it. However until then many people will stick with what they are comfortable with.

[GordonC]

14 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

My understanding is that 20%vat is charged on basic cost of petrol, on top of that there is fuel duty and 20% vat is also charged on that. So ev users are gaining a considerable advantage already by only paying it once, not twice, and no fuel duty on electricity. 

 

Regards that 800 mile range, sometimes I feel that some EV supporters lose the plot! You know exactly what he was referring to, the ability to only have to spend 5 minutes every 800 miles to fill up, not have to worry about weather affecting the range too much and not have to worry about whether when you do have to stop for fuel having to queue ages for it. Yes the last one can be circumnavigated by planning where you stop, such as using a charging point off the motorway and not a services, but with ranges on affordable EVs currently being in the 150 to 300 range (on a good day) its not as flexible as a IC car.

 

The current difference between most EVs and IC cars is that the former dictate to you when you have to stop for fuel and for the latter it's you that dictates when to stop. When affordable EVs get ranges around 450 mile's in all weathers then we'll see a major shift. Together with better infrastructure as Ron says, that will swing it. However until then many people will stick with what they are comfortable with.

 

I'm not even sure cars need 450 miles of range all the time - if they made an 'extra range' battery pack that could be fitted or hired for the rare occasions that long journeys are made, the vast majority of EV car usage must be completable in 250 miles. But do you really want to lug around 450 miles of battery around all the time for the odd times its needed?

 

[Hobby]

That depends on battery technology, something that's still developing, longer range batteries will come, I'm sure.

 

I take your point about range, but I still feel 250 is too low. Whilst we're not a big island a journey of 300+ miles is common enough and remember I said true range, many cars with supposed 250 range only do sub 200 in reality. People want the convenience they are used to, and that's not having to refuel on a long journey or on a shorter journey over a couple of days such as a 150 mile journey each way. Dedicated EVers will no doubt say it can all be done, and they are right, with plenty if forward planning, but what's needed is an affordable EV with the convenience of an IC car.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Hobby

[APOLLO]

Back around 1985 I drove in one day from York to Dingwall in this.

 

 

Nearly 400 miles, I had to stop for fuel a couple of times though (22mpg on a run).

 

Very comfortable journey in "The Flying Armchair".

 

I still have and run this car (occasionally). 50 years old in June of this year, set for another 50 if the planets oil reserves last !!  (She has depleted a few oilfields in her time !!)

 

No EV's or Hybrids for me, too expensive and way over complicated.  Cannot be fixed by a selection of screwdrivers, spanners and a 5 pound lump hammer.

 

Brit15

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

There will never be a need for an EV to manage 800 miles without recharging.

How long does it take to drive 800 miles? With clear roads, about 12 hours. Could you really drive 12 hours non-stop? No chance. It would probably be a 2 day journey with at least 1 extra stop each day.

The key to making EVs work is to make charging available wherever you stop & make it fast enough that even a quick toilet break gives you 90 minutes driving time. A stop for lunch will give it enough time to charge for double that. These are the targets it needs to achieve. 250 miles is plenty for this.

The technology is there; Tesla have it right now. The infrastructure is not though; everyone needs access to it, but they don't yet.

It won't be there by 2035 either. There is just too much to do & not enough being done.

 

How did HS1 v HS2 drift to EVs?

Plenty of people can drive 12 hours in a day.

i knew a Model Railway rep who had no issues with very long drives.

 

ive had to do it many times, mostly across Europe or the US.
A few breaks and just keep going.

 

Dont forget in a time crunch, you can relay drivers, so each can get a rest whilst mobile.

 

I think 400 miles is better than 250, and that expectation should be in a 3 year old mid size car, on a cold snowy day.

 

But as an around town runabout, I think that use case is now met.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by adb968008

[Ron Ron Ron]

33 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

 

 

 

No EV's or Hybrids for me, too expensive and way over complicated. 

Cannot be fixed by a selection of screwdrivers, spanners and a 5 pound lump hammer.

 

 

Lovely car and I hope you can keep it running for a lot longer.

 

Too expensive - yes, but then again new ICE cars have increased in price significantly over the last 5 years.

More affordable models are in the pipeline, some are already available.

Most car purchases though, are 2nd hand. BEV’s are only starting to trickle onto the used market and prices are very tempting, with late low mileage cars available for big reductions on their new price.

 

Over complicated ?

How?

They are far more simple mechanically and to drive than ICE vehicles.

The over complicated tech, is very similar, if not the same, as that being fitted to most new ICE cars.

 

Cannot be fixed?

What’s to fix?

There’s very little to attend to and much less than with an ICE car.

Tyres, brakes, suspension, windscreen wipers etc, are no different from on an ICE vehicle.

 

 

.

 

[adb968008]

4 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Lovely car and I hope you can keep it running for a lot longer.

 

Too expensive - yes, but then again new ICE cars have increased in price significantly over the last 5 years.

More affordable models are in the pipeline, some are already available.

Most car purchases though, are 2nd hand. BEV’s are only starting to trickle onto the used market and prices are very tempting, with late low mileage cars available for big reductions on their new price.

 

Over complicated ?

How?

They are far more simple mechanically and to drive than ICE vehicles.

The over complicated tech, is very similar, if not the same, as that being fitted to most new ICE cars.

 

Cannot be fixed?

What’s to fix?

There’s very little to attend to and much less than with an ICE car.

Tyres, brakes, suspension, windscreen wipers etc, are no different from on an ICE vehicle.

 

 

.

 

And the range depreciation on a 5 year old battery, especially in winter ?

 

Ive noticed an increase in immobilised battery suv’s around London… they stop in traffic, and simply dont start again causing mass chaos…maybe too heavy to push out of the way or locked in gear ?.. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

 

Why would you want to stop 3 times?

Where are you starting out from.

You can do the English south coast to Manchester on one charge with many EV models, although you are likely to need a stop anyway, for a toilet stop and some advisable rest.

Also, on journeys where you would need to recharge, you don't need to "fill up" in most cases.

 

 

Of course it exists.

There just isn't enough of it installed yet and the rate of improvement in provision, which is continuous, still isn't fast enough.

 

 

 

Which technology is that?

 

 

Very true, particularly from public charging stations.

It doesn't help that the government levies 20% VAT on the 'leckie bought from these stations.

However, we are not going to see cheap fossil fuel any time soon.

Quite the opposite, it's going to get more and more expensive.

Alas the infrastructure really doesn't exist.  Here until a few years ago we had regular power outages, usually fairly brief, because the cable network couldn't take the load which has increased over the years due to house building in the area.

 

Even after uprating the cable network we still get occasional flickers and short outages so obviously the network still isn't up to scratch.  Then add in the load of dozens of EVs charging simultaneously and it's obvious what will happen.  Chuck in  electrically powered heat pumps instead of gas fired boilers, even more house building (that happens round here), and the network simply can't take the load.  Oh and don't forget all the various green power schemes which have been told they can't be connected to teh grid for years because it hasn't got the capacity to handle their output.  There is an urgent need to massively i crease the capacity of the grid but even more so the capacity of feeds to urban areas - and that can't be done by 2030 (or probably not even by 2035.

 

Incidentally I presume the range of electric cars is based on driving in a winter night in wet weather with the aircon/heating system working plus all the other power consuming things such as sat nav etc.  If that isn't the case then it'

s an even dead-end con than it is already turning out to be.  

 

Now getting back to HS1

 

2 hours ago, meil said:

Getting back to the original question - "Why was HS1 built with so much less fuss than HS2?"

 

CTRL was conceived by a private sector consortium but principally one consultant who took one look at what BR were up to and presented the route, as we now have, to the Government.

 

BR's moribund scheme was to deliver the trains to Waterloo with no feasible rail connections to the North.

 

The Delivery vehicle for CTRL was also private sector driven and it delivered the CTRL more or less on time and on budget.

 

In comparison HS2 is a project management disaster. If you list all things that Project Management should not do - HS2 has done.

One big difference between CTRL and HS2 is that stuff was stripped out of CTRL to reduce the costs as the scheme progressed,  The biggest example of this is St Pancras where its capacity was reduced massively notwithstanding the fact that even the original plan could not get anywhere near the capacity needed to service  the CTRL capacity base case.

 

I was very closely involved in the original planning of the signalling for St Pancras and despite repeated comments to 'the project' that the requirement they had tabled was in some respects ridiculously lavish (e.g. connecting the MML to the CTRL domestic platforms) on the other hand, even allowing for  UK regional trains leaving CTRL there, it severely lacked the capacity to handle CTRL base case traffic.  The project spent somewhere in the region of £150,000 on a set of drawings which were effectively designing the ridiculous to meet the original remit.  The number of point ends alone which were taken out of the base design  to reduce it to what is there now saved millions. 

 

I agree that HS2 seems to have had no project management at all or if there has been any it is abysmal but don't go round thinking that CTRL delivered within budget what it was originally planned to deliver because it definitely didn't.

 

 

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

They are far more simple mechanically and to drive than ICE vehicles.

 

An automatic ICE car is just as simple to drive as it's equivalent EV, other than the power source there's little difference, I can't see where you are coming from there, Ron.

 

Regards range. We are due to change cars next year and I was seriously looking at an EV, in particular a Skoda Enyaq iV80 with a range* of 339 miles. However Skoda have, at least, been very honest about EV range and have a little calculator, which makes interesting reading/calculating. As my driving mileage is currently 50/50 between urban and motorway it would seem as that headline figure is a figment of imagination. Granted the same sort of "official" calculations and published figures for IC are also not to be trusted I've always been able to get pretty close to the combined figure in all my cars. Looking at that i suspect with an EV I wouldn't get anywhere close to the 339 miles which seems to be calculated using the best possible combination.

 

https://rangecalculator.skoda-auto.com/210/en-gb?actioncode=GP03P03%2FGYONYON%2FGYPAYPA&drivingEnvironment=City&drivingStyle=Eco&mbv=5ACJP4&occupancy=DriverOnly&salesgroup=64655&season=Summer&temperature=21

 

Hence in my earlier post i said an affordable EV with 450 genuine range, that Skoda has a genuine range of nearer 200 miles, not the 339 it advertises. Yes, I know that range in an IC can vary a lot but my experiences using Fuelly would indicate it's nowhere near as much of a fluctuation as an EV. For me a plug in hybrid would be ideal, but the only one that would fit our needs has too high an advance payment (a Vauxhall Astra Estate). Much as I'd like to join the EV crowd at present it doesn't look feasible. 

[APOLLO]

I'll not argue either for or against EV's, simply they are currently (!!!) not for me.  Time will tell. And yes they are getting better etc.

 

I remember many, many, years ago (1970's) when I started driving (in my Dad's 3.5 Litre Daimler Majestic) buying a few car mags. In one issue BMW had taken a model (2002 if I rightly remember) and pared the spec right back to make it more affordable to ordinary folks. Very basic, but still a BMW (quality back then). Surely if this was done with an EV (any make), sub £20K with decent range, only the essential bells and whistles etc, backed up with a decent leasing / PCP / finance packaging it would be a winner. I would then think again. 

 

If the European car manufacturers are not careful the Chinese will eat their lunch.

 

Happy days, "Big D" and me back around 1971 - Jazzy new number plates & tinworm !!

See the little hole over the no plate ? - that's for a starting handle. My first job was saving for a new battery, a fiver !!

 

 

Brit15

Edited October 6, 2023 by APOLLO

[Ron Ron Ron]

18 hours ago, APOLLO said:

.......Surely if this was done with an EV (any make), sub £20K with decent range, only the essential bells and whistles etc, backed up with a decent leasing / PCP / finance packaging it would be a winner. I would then think again. 

 

If the European car manufacturers are not careful the Chinese will eat their lunch.......

 

 

There's already a European car brand, small basic and cheap EV.

The Dacia Spring  (Dacia are owned by Renault).

It first went on the market in France (and other countries), a couple of years ago, for around €17k  (= £14.5K) , bit with the government incentive, worked out around €15k  (= £13k).

It costs a bit more now, as prices have all risen across the board since then.

 

Note than a basic entry model,  ICE VW Polo or Peugeot 208 starts at just under £20k, with most models costing between £21k & £24K

 

VW group have been working on what they declared, would be a sub- €20k small EV.

It was due to arrive in 2024/25, but those dates have slipped to 2025+ and it's now being touted as a sub- €25k car.

 

Renault have the new Renault 5 EV coming soon, reviving an old model moniker.

Again, it's supposed to be in the budget category .

 

Others are are following suit.

 

China is the one to watch and the European car manufacturers are chasing their tails trying to catch up.

As you say, some of them could be in big trouble if the expected wave of Chinese EV's find success in the European marketplace.

It's already happening.

 

In the UK alone, in the first 9 months of this year, Chinese brand MG have sold way more cars than the likes of Skoda, Renault, Peugeot and Volvo.

More than 2 thirds of thise MG’s are EV's

They've sold 6x the number of Jaguars in the UK, during that 9 month period !

 

Polestar, is said to be an offshoot of Volvo, but in reality, they're a Chinese owned company (just like Volvo) and their cars are made in China.

In the first 9 months of this year, they sold more than 10k Chinese made Polestar 2 EV's in the UK.

That's about the same as the entire model line-up of Jaguar  (XE, XF, XF Estate, E-Pace, F-Pace, i-Pace & F-Type), with just one model !

 

 

 

.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[AndrueC]

Hmmm.

 

On the one hand it sounds like a good idea for when a major event is on but on the other hand I'm innately suspicious of anything my MP suggests.

 

Sadly the chances of getting the Conservatives out around here are miniscule. It's never happened since records began and often makes me wonder why I bother to vote.

[The Stationmaster]

11 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

Hmmm.

 

On the one hand it sounds like a good idea for when a major event is on but on the other hand I'm innately suspicious of anything my MP suggests.

 

Sadly the chances of getting the Conservatives out around here are miniscule. It's never happened since records began and often makes me wonder why I bother to vote.

Sorry to stay with poilitics (of a sort) but in any of these modern day equivalents of rotten boroughs where either  the red or blue team is an immovable permanent fixture you can at least exercise the most basic of your rights/. So you can  be [very] rude on your ballot paper and express your opinion of the candidates or vote for the most ridiculous candidate just to show 'them' that you are not one of the voting sheep.  

 

Doesn't achieve much but I once spoilt my ballot paper thereby helping the constituency to a record of having the highest number of spoilt ballot papers thus far recorded.