Hymeks on Expresses?

[Miss Prism]

37 minutes ago, Stoke West said:

D7037 at Stoke West with a rather smart double bracket in front the loco with Stoke East outer pulled off , the top bracket with arm for the up goods and the lower one with large disc for the up reception .

 

Where is the distant worked from?

 

[Stoke West]

11 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Where is the distant worked from?

 

Stoke Gifford East the other end of the yard

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, kevinlms said:

So what did the LMR do, did they have the same problem?

More than likely but the were probably well enough acquainted with the locos to know what to look out fr and what to pay special attention to during exams.

 

I had something simlar with teh EE Type 3 s because when we fisrt tried putting them in multi at radyr in 1973 we had allsorts of problems until we worked which ones to couple to each other in what order to ensure that the both moved in the same direction when the Drover opened the controller.   Several years later when we got them for stone working in the West of England I told my people there to watch out for the same problem and we did indeed put one pair together only to find that didn't talk the same language.  So yet again we kept some notes about which ones didn't like each other although things were generally much better with them by then.

 

Like lots of things various diesel classes had their own little foibles - as anyone who's ever tried to reverse a 1000 will tell you..

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, Stoke West said:

D7046 on 1A50 the sidings on the left aren't trapped so the line to the left of the train is a siding , the line the train is on being flat bottom would suggest it is a running line , is the train facing down on the up line with the wagons being on the other running line with loop and siding behind . I would like to suggest Bath Goods , box with three ventilaters and Claverton Down as back drop . Dont mind being proved wrong 

The original caption on Flickr is definitely wrong and has been queried there although no alternative is offered.    So the first thing to query is what the train actually is, as opposed to what it has been described as, and i don't think that it's a WSM - Paddington train.   Secondly it doesn't for aywhere at WSM for an Up train and it diesn't fit for an Up train at Bath Goods either as the signal box there was on the Down side and the pointwork on the left doesn't fit for a Down train at Bath Goods.

 

The scene has a touch familiarity to it but i can't at the moment place it

[Stoke West]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

The original caption on Flickr is definitely wrong and has been queried there although no alternative is offered.    So the first thing to query is what the train actually is, as opposed to what it has been described as, and i don't think that it's a WSM - Paddington train.   Secondly it doesn't for aywhere at WSM for an Up train and it diesn't fit for an Up train at Bath Goods either as the signal box there was on the Down side and the pointwork on the left doesn't fit for a Down train at Bath Goods.

 

The scene has a touch familiarity to it but i can't at the moment place it

The reporting number is totally misleading . Its facing down on the up main line my take its just ran round and looking at the driver i would say he's waiting for that goods to clear before getting the dummy off to either go down main or down thro siding . A Frys Kenysham excursion ? i realise they usually ran round at Bathampton . The box roof is visible over the rear of the train with its three ventilaters .

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Stoke West said:

The reporting number is totally misleading . Its facing down on the up main line my take its just ran round and looking at the driver i would say he's waiting for that goods to clear before getting the dummy off to either go down main or down thro siding . A Frys Kenysham excursion ? i realise they usually ran round at Bathampton . The box roof is visible over the rear of the train with its three ventilaters .

But why is rhere a plain turbnout on the left where there was a single slip at bBath Goods?.  And why is there a lighting tower behind the signal box?  The box roof with three ventilators was of course a common design but it's the lighting towers that puzzle puzzles me in that position at Bath Goods

Edited October 14, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[Stoke West]

20 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

But why is rhere a plain turbnout on the left where there was a single slip at bBath Goods?.  And why is there a lighting tower behind the signal box?  The box roof with three ventilators was of course a common design but it's the lighting towers that puzzle puzzles me in that position at Bath Goods

Theres a few niggly bits for me like the missing slip on left if diagrams are correct  , when i first seen it the buildings on the right made me think Plymouth but nothing fits . I've seen lighting units like that before but cant think where . Looking forward to someone giving  positive ID either confirm or disprove . 

[Halvarras]

On 13/10/2023 at 21:26, br2975 said:

 

The first tranche of Cl.25s to hit the Western were D5179-5182 & D7624/25 in October, 1970.

.

They were fitted with EQ brakes, of which the locals were allegedly highly suspicious.

 

 

I've posted these pics before but they were probably lost during the Great Image Wipeout - these were all Kodak Instamatic shots, quality tended to be weather-dependant.......

 

5180 was the first of its type into Cornwall, arriving at St Blazey on a freight on the early evening of Friday 30th July 1971; I was located  further west and it took two weeks for the grapevine to activate so I travelled up on Monday 16th August to take this photo - if an earlier shot of a 25 in Cornwall exists, 52 years later I still haven't seen it (note that it was still carrying 55A Leeds Holbeck cast shed plates, as well as '86B EBBW JUNC' stickers on all four corners):

 

On some sadly unrecorded date shortly after this I saw 5179 clearance-testing Truro Yard which was still in the process of remodelling, but without a camera to hand. However on 11th September 1971 I paid a visit to Laira and photted it there instead (on this date D7657 in Gsyp livery was stabled at Exeter - I believe these were the crew-training locos, 5180 at BZ, 5179 at LA, 7657 at NA/EX):

 

On 21st October D7676 still in its original blue livery was found stabled in Truro's down sidings, I had the camera with me but didn't take a photo as there was a row of cars parked in front of it........mistake! - I didn't see it again!!

 

In January 1972 crew-training commenced between Penzance and Truro utilising D7502 and a rake of condemned vans - I noticed 'VB-EQ' on the data panel (wrong end on this loco) and I imagine that the crews noticed it too ("What the 'ell's this, didn' 'ave that on them ol' 22s!"):

 

However........this is a Hymek thread so, what have I got? Um, well there's these three at Hereford in August 1972 on not-exactly-ten-coach expresses - firstly D7031 on an unrecorded day:

 

D7029 on the 5th:

 

And D7026 on the 12th:

[david.hill64]

When the Hymeks were being withdrawn I had a week in Scotland planned which started with a late evening departure from Gloucester to Birmingham. I was very happy when the Cardiff to Birmingham train arrived at Gloucester Central behind a grubby looking Hymek. I thought I was in for a treat with a thrash up the Lickey. Sadly the Hymek was removed, but was replaced by a pair of 25's. Never regular performers on passenger trains through Gloucester. Made for an interesting start to the week.

[Stoke West]

On 14/10/2023 at 17:56, Stoke West said:

Theres a few niggly bits for me like the missing slip on left if diagrams are correct  , when i first seen it the buildings on the right made me think Plymouth but nothing fits . I've seen lighting units like that before but cant think where . Looking forward to someone giving  positive ID either confirm or disprove .

The Cotswolds in the back ground confused me its a bit further north than Bath . Looking closer on the far left is a single rail trap which i didnt notice before . Theres a lighting pole by the box which confused me for Bath  plus that yard light cluster which looked familiar . It's lack of exhaust doesn't help , it's heading up the Golden Valley out of Stroud

[Rivercider]

1 hour ago, Stoke West said:

The Cotswolds in the back ground confused me its a bit further north than Bath . Looking closer on the far left is a single rail trap which i didnt notice before . Theres a lighting pole by the box which confused me for Bath  plus that yard light cluster which looked familiar . It's lack of exhaust doesn't help , it's heading up the Golden Valley out of Stroud

You have it, well done!

I had eliminated all the places I could think of in Devon, Somerset, and Bristol.

 

I can see why the photo of D7046 may have been thought to be Weston, Hymeks were quite commonly seen there and the hill in the background might be mistaken for Worlebury Hill in Weston. I did for a while wonder if the train might have been leaving Locking Road excursion station. Here is a photo from Flickr taken at the west end of Weston station

 An unidentified Hymek departs Weston-super-Mare heading west. Note Worlebury Hill in the background. From R W Carroll collection

 

cheers 

[Stoke West]

9 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

You have it, well done!

I had eliminated all the places I could think of in Devon, Somerset, and Bristol.

 

I can see why the photo of D7046 may have been thought to be Weston, Hymeks were quite commonly seen there and the hill in the background might be mistaken for Worlebury Hill in Weston. I did for a while wonder if the train might have been leaving Locking Road excursion station. Here is a photo from Flickr taken at the west end of Weston station

 An unidentified Hymek departs Weston-super-Mare heading west. Note Worlebury Hill in the background. From R W Carroll collection

 

cheers 

Thanks , it totally confused me the perspective of the hills looked just like Bath hence first suggestion with a straight line fitting location at Bath goods . 

[Dunsignalling]

On 11/10/2023 at 17:33, Matt37268 said:

Much as I do like Class 31’s ‘Nippy’ is never a word I’d use to describe them! 

Agreed. They didn't so much accelerate as gradually gather momentum.

 

They were generally regarded as inferior to a 25 (let alone a Hymek) on Exeter-Barnstaple services that seldom exceeded 4 coaches.

 

John

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 11/10/2023 at 13:50, Steamport Southport said:

Without going to far down the Class 31 rabbit hole.

 

Where they did excel was when the Class 31/4s took over the Transpennine Express trains from the 124 DMUs. But were later replaced by Sprinters.

 

Short trains of 5 or 6 coaches. ISTR they were quite nippy.

 

 

Jason

As long as the weather was warm. They had a switch in the cab for the ETH. One driver told me if you want engine power keep it off until the guard complains. We occasionally got one from OOC subbing for a 1000 on the Birmingham run. One winter trip from New Street to Banbury the only section we kept time was from Solihull to Leamington which is almost all downhill including Hatton Bank. We lost about five minutes to Banbury despite having greens the way.

 

My main experiences with Hymeks were on trips from Birmingham to the West Country. One would take over from a Black 5 at Bristol. We would get off at Exeter, usually after a good run with 10 coaches loaded to the ceiling with holidaymakers and luggage.

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 13/10/2023 at 12:03, The Stationmaster said:

Similarly the Cromptons - as they were known to us; Class 33 to most people - were definitely not in the NIH category

Built alongside the GWR line from Snow Hill to Wolverhampton LL.👍

[robertcwp]

Up Red Dragon:

D7028_OOC_RedDragon_21-8-62 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[The Johnster]

I count 14 bogies, 460 or so tons trailing, normal for this working.  Note the B4 bogies and the chocolate/cream BG; these were a rarity and prone to being 'borrowed' by the Southern to accompany the 'Bournemouth Belle' as that region didn't have any Pullman brake vehicles.  The Hymek is in a disgraceful external state for a Canton loco, and carrying an incorrect headcode, letting the side down badly.  My memory of 'meks on South Wales expresses in the brief period before Westerns and 47s rescued the situation was that they usually looked very smart,

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I count 14 bogies, 460 or so tons trailing, normal for this working.  Note the B4 bogies and the chocolate/cream BG; these were a rarity and prone to being 'borrowed' by the Southern to accompany the 'Bournemouth Belle' as that region didn't have any Pullman brake vehicles.  The Hymek is in a disgraceful external state for a Canton loco, and carrying an incorrect headcode, letting the side down badly.  My memory of 'meks on South Wales expresses in the brief period before Westerns and 47s rescued the situation was that they usually looked very smart,

BG's were mainly used in the Belle after the Pullman Parlour brakes were withdrawn, though there are photos that show one of each in the same train. Maroon and blue/grey examples were also used, but the SR only received a a few "pre-loved" BGs from the LMR quite late on. I think they were all repainted into green, but some may have gone straight into blue/grey. I'm not aware of a green one ever appearing on the Bournemouth Belle. 

 

AIUI, the chocolate/cream BG used on the Belle was the same one as long as it stayed. It was said to have been in a vile state when the Southern purloined/rescued it from an inter-regional parcels train and they put a lot of elbow grease into making it a respectable partner for the Pullman set. Pity they didn't pinch a pair!

 

When the WR eventually got it back, they probably didn't recognise it! 😉

 

John 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

38 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I count 14 bogies, 460 or so tons trailing, normal for this working.  Note the B4 bogies and the chocolate/cream BG; these were a rarity and prone to being 'borrowed' by the Southern to accompany the 'Bournemouth Belle' as that region didn't have any Pullman brake vehicles.  The Hymek is in a disgraceful external state for a Canton loco, and carrying an incorrect headcode, letting the side down badly.  My memory of 'meks on South Wales expresses in the brief period before Westerns and 47s rescued the situation was that they usually looked very smart,

IIRC, the Red Dragon schedule was fairly undemanding and the train could be (and was) "timed" by a 9F with no need for any 90 mph shenanigans.

 

Probably within the capacity of a well-driven Hymek, though it might have lost time on some stretches and needed to make it back on easier ones. They seldom seemed to give away much (if anything) to a Warship between London and Bristol or Westbury.

 

John

[keefer]

The Red Dragon and The Bristolian were the first complete trains fitted with B4 bogies, these being early production examples.

By 1963, after meeting 150,000-mile wear targets, the B4 was designated the new 'standard' bogie.

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

IIRC, the Red Dragon schedule was fairly undemanding and the train could be (and was) "timed" by a 9F with no need for any 90 mph shenanigans.

 

Probably within the capacity of a well-driven Hymek, though it might have lost time on some stretches and needed to make it back on easier ones. They seldom seemed to give away much (if anything) to a Warship between London and Bristol or Westbury.

 

John

In the 1961 WTT  'The Red Dragon' was booked 43 minutes pass-to-pass for the 41.25 miles from Swindon to Reading;  42 minutes pass-to-stop  for the 36 miles from Reading to Paddington; and 14 minutes for the 9 miles from Southall to Paddington (which no doubt included a recovery allowance and a lot of the distance from Swindon was on a gradual falling gradient).  The 1962 timings might have been a bit tighter but not by too much.

[The Johnster]

Evening Star timed the Red Dragon on three consecutive days when it was brand new at Canton.  But it wasn't a good idea to use a 5' driving wheeled engine on fast jobs in terms of loco or track maintenance.  An incident on the ECML where a 9F replaced a pacific on an up 'Flying Scotsman' and ran up to 90mph is often cited as proof of what 9Fs could do with the inference that they could have been used as a standard express engine, but extended use of them on really fast work (let's define that as continuous non-stop running at 80mph and over for those days) would have led to serious loco and Per.Way problems.  There is a difference between what a loco could do and what itshould do.

 

The Red Dragon changed engines at Cardiff and ran non-stop from Newport.  The engine was 'warmed up' by the time it had cruised across the Gwent Levels at a maximum 75mph, and the hard work started at the bottom of the Severn Tunnel, where 14 bogies had to be lifted out of the tunnel and up to Badminton, nearly thirty miles away; that's a bt of a schlep at mostly 1 in 100, comparable to the Settle & Carlisle banks.  Any momentum that was built up was destroyed by a 40mph restricton over the junctions at Patchway and Stoke Gifford.  That apart, you plugged along at about 45-50mph until you reached the summit at Badminton, and then you got a respite. Once the fireman had rebuilt whatever was left of his poor fire, and you'd come off the 50mph over the Junction at Wootton Bassett (it wasn't Royal in those days), you built the speed up to recover any time you'd lost earlier (and you were doing very well indeed, or rather your fireman was, if you hadn't lost some) and kept her at it full regulator and a mid-range cut-off with the speed in the mid-80s except for the Reading slack, and hoped you had enough coal to make it to Paddington.  Sometimes this was touch-and-go, and would have been more so with 9Fs.

 

As this applies to a Hymek, the loco was worked hard over the Gwent Levels, thrashed as hard as possible from Severn Tunnel Bottom up to Badminton by which time speed would be down in the thirties, and thrashed the rest of the way as well except for Wootton Bassett and Reading PROS.

 

A Warship v Hymek debate would have to take into account that the Warships were only three tons heavier than Hymeks, but ball-park 18% more powerful.  Not sure how much difference that made at the railhead, and by the time the 'meks arrived on the scene the 'ships were showing signs of their earlier hammerings, which might explain overloaded Hymeks on the Badminton route 'not giving much away' to overloaded Warships coming up from Bristol or Westbury.  My subjective view is that a Hymek could do most of what a Warship could do, and do it while being kinder to crews and track: in most situations I doubt if there was as much as a coach in it...

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

A 9F on that climb up out of the Severn Tunnel probably had an advantage even over a King, and that may well have been critical to their ability to meet the overall schedule. 

 

I understand the original plans included enough Hymeks to constitute a direct replacement of the Halls. Had those orders not been cut back, I find it interesting to speculate what might have been possible with sufficient Hymeks to allow pairs to be customarily rostered to heavy expresses. That would also have freed up many of the ill-treated Warships for an easier life on medium-heavy duties that actually fell to the Hymeks. 

 

With pairs of Hymeks on the heaviest trains (freight as well as passenger), Warships on the next tier, and single Hymeks below them, nothing would have needed to be "hammered", increasing reliability, and cutting repair/overhaul costs. Would the 1000s even have been needed?

 

John

Edited October 21, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[The Johnster]

AIUI there was an order for another hundred Hymeks, geared for heavy freight work and intended to replace the 56xx tanks, but Beyer-Peacock were drain-circling and went down it before this could be undertaken, but there was a lot going on over a short period 1961-3, culminting in Beeching.  Traffic was haemorraging, losses spiralling, and the pattern of work was changing on an almost daily basis at the same time as the Warships were dropping like flies.  Diesel replaced steam on a one-for-three basis,  so the hundred and one Hymeks that were delivered replaced 300 Halls (theoretically), which is about right.  There was also a plan for a 'Super-Western' of more than 3khp which never materialised.  Decisions were made, countermanded, overtaken by events and the railway was having to do some existentialist soul-searching. 

 

It is not generally remembered that there was a major tranche of closures on the WR in 1962 that are generally attributed to The Doctor, but were not actually anything to do with him.  Passenger services in the Newport Valleys, the Brecon & Merthyr, Risca-Tredegar, the Mid-Wales, Neath & Brecon all went that year.  The Brecon network might have been viable with dmus, powertwin 120s like the Central Wales line, but that was never tried.

 

By 1964 the 56xx were being replaced by 37s and the main lines were being flooded with 47s, traffic had been effectively halved, and the crisis was over as the region settled into it's diminished role in the new world of motorway, private cars, and the 40' artic.  Losses were still a big problem, and would continue to be for some time.

Edited October 21, 2023 by The Johnster