Mystery 4-4-2 tank in 00

[Nearholmer]

I’m trying to think of other clockwork drives. A gramophone? 

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m trying to think of other clockwork drives. A gramophone? 

Watches? 😇

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m trying to think of other clockwork drives.

Other than a clock?😄

 

Seriously: A mechanical kitchen timer?

There's also model boats and cars.

I had an original Scalex car which was clockwork (didn't run on tracks in those days.)

Edited October 26, 2023 by melmerby

[Captain Slough]

Lots of time went into this and almost no proprietary parts. My guess is it was made as a commission during WW2

 

Nobody makes their own wheel spokes if they have an option to buy complete wheels....

[Nearholmer]

6 hours ago, melmerby said:

Other than a clock

Many “clockworks” are/were designed to yield barely any torque, just enough to move very light clock hands, timer dials, very light “penny toys” etc., so probably not strong enough to shift a loco and train.

 

There were lots of different musical things that were clockwork though, various breeds of music boxes, including ones that read from large diameter sheet-steel discs, a bit like 12” records, and some that pumped air through pipes like an organ, and there were marvellous devices for turning large joints of meat on a spit, although the clockworks on those were so big that one would probably need a 16mm/ft loco to house it.

 

Any chance that we could see the mechanism with the housing removed?

Edited October 27, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Johnson044]

What a beautiful model, and I'm so relieved that it has gone to someone who appreciates it. This is pioneering stuff- almost everything (aside, possibly, from the mechanism, or parts of it) made entirely from raw materials. 

 

So - either the builder(s) chose not to use available components or they were not available- through shortage (WW2 deprivation of some kind), or overseas, or - maybe the components just didn't exist yet and we are in the Bing Table Railway era, at the dawn of small scale modelling? This is a priceless piece of work.

 

There must be a story there to be found- it would be great to ensure it doesn't get lost- I think the seller said something about the models being part of their father's collection? Might be worth a quick email to them.

 

What on earth uses a volute spring in a small tube to provide plenty of controlled power? Googling has not helped- parking meters, clocks, music boxes, spring guns- so maybe the mechanism was entirely purpose-made.

 

I now understand why the coupling rods are cranked!

[Player of trains]

I think the mechanism may well have been entirely purpose made, I must leave a review for the seller so I’m going to email them at the same time to see if they have more information, I’ve begun stripping down the mechanism to give it a good clean at least so I’ll try to take some more photographs, the governor was doing a good job at limiting the speed of it as the spring unwinds very quickly without it fitted. I think the model needs rebuilding entirely however, the tolerances of the mechanism are rather poor, the gears mesh at sloppy angles and one coupling rod is longer than the other, I think think the actual spring and boiler were made by one person and the rest of the model by another.
I’m hesitant to say it was a commission due to the quality of it, despite the charm I’d be modified to deliver something like this to a customer? Perhaps a father and son team or a club member making something for another? The rollers underneath indicate some tripping pins or rails were fitted to the layout this was intended to operate on, like a Triang tpo van, I wonder if this was destined for an early perhaps pre war OO club layout, maybe even an early Minories type layout, I’m sure the loco is supposed to be an I3 which would fit just fine. 

[melmerby]

13 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m trying to think of other clockwork drives. A gramophone? 

Bit of a beast of a spring in those

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Many “clockworks” are/were designed to yield barely any torque, just enough to move very light clock hands, timer dials, very light “penny toys” etc., so probably not strong enough to shift a loco and train.

 

There were lots of different musical things that were clockwork though, various breeds of music boxes, including ones that read from large diameter sheet-steel discs, a bit like 12” records, and some that pumped air through pipes like an organ, and there were marvellous devices for turning large joints of meat on a spit, although the clockworks on those were so big that one would probably need a 16mm/ft loco to house it.

 

Any chance that we could see the mechanism with the housing removed?

Likewise those which are commonly called Polyphons

 

Those small usually Swiss mechanisms in novelty music boxes are quite small.

 

The clock I've got hanging on the wall in the hall has also got a pretty large spring from the size of the drum it's in.

It's about 130-140 years old and has AFAIK never had a service but it's tim ekeeping is reasonable forit's age

[goldfish]

A bit off the wall, but volute springs were used in suspension/shock absorber units. Perhaps the mechanism was built around a spring and barrel recovered from a none clockwork application.

[Nearholmer]

An ordinary clockwork spring is a volute spring, isn’t it?

 

We tend to think of the term applying to springs where the leaf-width is large in comparison with the coil diameter, and where the spring function is along the coil axis, but I have an inkling that maybe any spiral spring is a volute spring.

 

Views?

[Player of trains]

I think a typical mainspring is just called a spiral spring, a volute spring is specifically conical, I'm not 100% sure that it is a volute spring, I'm just suggesting it as a volute spring would fit better in the small tube of the boiler

 

[Nearholmer]

I had a google, and a typical clock spring is a “spiral torsion spring”, but, guess what volute means: spiral.

[goldfish]

The classic example of a volute spring is the spring on secateurs, the double ended springs that slide inside themselves. A volute spring would operate an escapement mechanism by pushing a rack against a gear train. It would be compressed flat and return to a conical shape as it is released. I have a vague memory of a such an arrangement being used to drive the shutter on a mechanical high speed camera. You probably get very high torque but low endurance.

Edited October 27, 2023 by goldfish

[Player of trains]

I'll be able to post a photograph later, but I have dismantled the boiler, I'm completely stumped now. It's not one spring, its three springs working in triplicate I think, three springs that are stacked up. Each is a closed section of brass tube each about an inch long that key into another, once one is fully wound it winds the next and then the third, its a very clever way at getting more life out of the clockwork mechanism. But I am no further to understanding what the springs are out of, but being three smaller ones rather than one long volute spring like I originally thought might help. 

[goldfish]

There were a few people experimenting with that idea. One of the outer springs is anchored to the body, the other outer spring is anchored to the drive shaft, and the middle spring is connected to the other two springs through a couple of discs that are free to rotate on the shaft. It gives longer endurance, but the downside is the time it takes to wind the thing up/

[Metropolitan H]

I have a feeling that there has been a relatively recent Gauge 1 model of a tank loco built with a compound spring arrangement as described - with a write up in a G1MRA Journal.

 

But my memory is fallible and it might have been "O" gauge??

 

So yes, I agree with Goldfish.

 

Regards

Chris H

[goldfish]

6 minutes ago, Metropolitan H said:

I have a feeling that there has been a relatively recent Gauge 1 model of a tank loco built with a compound spring arrangement as described - with a write up in a G1MRA Journal.

 

Possibly you are referring to this :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqrEiEOE-VQ

 

[Metropolitan H]

Thats the one.

 

For those not in the "Know", ARM1G is a SECR / SR H Class 0-4-4T loco in Gauge 1 live steam. The pictured version is a clockwork one!

 

Regards

Chris H