"VB" and "MT" on SNCF Epoch III railway wagons?

[BillB]

Hello again, I'm browsing REE SNCF Ep.III wagons, and I see a van with a big "VB" on the side (REE WB-741 SNCF(exPLM) 20T van. EpIII), another van with a big "MT" on the side (REE WB-742 SNCF (exPLM) Fruit van. MT. EpIII), and a flat car, also with a big "MT" on the side (REE WB-502 SNCF Plats TP . EpIIIb). I am wondering what these letters indicate, e.g. something simple like "Vacuum Brake", or something restrictive like "Maintenance of Way Dept", or "Not for use on the main line".

 

I'm also wondering if there is an index somewhere of French wagon lettering - not hopeful and have searched the web, but there are comprehensive indexes of, e.g. German military nomenclature, so maybe.....

 

Thanks,

Bill.

[BillB]

It's just too easy to post something and forget to click the "Follow Topic" button. Maybe it would be better if the default was "Yes" and you had to click something to not follow it? You can't follow a topic you forgot to follow except by posting another message and clicking "Follow".

[eastwestdivide]

Managed to find an answer via googling “que signifie mt vb sncf”.

For details see  https://www.trainsdumidi.com/t13007-marquage-t-m-v-sur-les-wagons-quelle-signification

from which

Quote

MT =Matériel Traction ,  Traction = T Matériel = M 
VB =Voies et Bâtiments  V= Voies (service de la voie)

so apparently the equivalent to departmental service on BR, rough translations MT = motive power dept; VB = civil engineering/infrastructure dept?

Edited October 21, 2023 by eastwestdivide
Quote

[BillB]

Thanks very much, I never thought of googling the question in French!

Best Regards,

Bill.

[Fat Controller]

8 hours ago, BillB said:

Hello again, I'm browsing REE SNCF Ep.III wagons, and I see a van with a big "VB" on the side (REE WB-741 SNCF(exPLM) 20T van. EpIII), another van with a big "MT" on the side (REE WB-742 SNCF (exPLM) Fruit van. MT. EpIII), and a flat car, also with a big "MT" on the side (REE WB-502 SNCF Plats TP . EpIIIb). I am wondering what these letters indicate, e.g. something simple like "Vacuum Brake", or something restrictive like "Maintenance of Way Dept", or "Not for use on the main line".

 

I'm also wondering if there is an index somewhere of French wagon lettering - not hopeful and have searched the web, but there are comprehensive indexes of, e.g. German military nomenclature, so maybe.....

 

Thanks,

Bill.

,VB' is 'Voie et bâtiments'  ie ' Civil engineers' stock. Not sure about 'MT'; Material et Traction'? The UIC might have a lexicon on their site

[Pacific231G]

20 hours ago, BillB said:

Hello again, I'm browsing REE SNCF Ep.III wagons, and I see a van with a big "VB" on the side (REE WB-741 SNCF(exPLM) 20T van. EpIII), another van with a big "MT" on the side (REE WB-742 SNCF (exPLM) Fruit van. MT. EpIII), and a flat car, also with a big "MT" on the side (REE WB-502 SNCF Plats TP . EpIIIb). I am wondering what these letters indicate, e.g. something simple like "Vacuum Brake", or something restrictive like "Maintenance of Way Dept", or "Not for use on the main line".

 

I'm also wondering if there is an index somewhere of French wagon lettering - not hopeful and have searched the web, but there are comprehensive indexes of, e.g. German military nomenclature, so maybe.....

 

Thanks,

Bill.

Maybe not online but I have fairly comprehensive details of Ep III wagon lettering. It all changed in about 1963 with the introduction of UIC lettering - more or less as used now. The general format was to use upper case letters to indicate the type of wagon with smaller lower case letters to indicate various details such as f screw handbrake with a guerite- brakeman's shelter (largely gone by the end of Ep III) g British loading gauge , y   bogies, r refrigeration etc. These appeared on the square beneath the letters SNCF on the left hand of each wagon side with the wagon number below the type desgination- early in ep III FRANCE appeared above the SNCF   

The main categories for "Petite Vitesse" i.e. wagons used in common goods trains  were (in 1945 - some may have changed later in ep III)

M Fourgon Marchandises (goods guards van)

K couvert (van)

T Tombereau (open wagon)  U Tombereau for coke

N plat (flatwagon with low hinged  sides) NT (flat wagon with higher hinged sides)

Nz flat wagon  with low fixed sides NTz flat wagon with higher fixed sides.

L flat wagon with pivoting cross pieces (typically used for timber traffic)

R flat wagon without sides 

T trémie (hopper wagon)

S flat wagons with special characteristics generally indicated by a second capital letter such as SR reservoir (tank wagon)

Except for type S wagons the type letter was doubled (eg TT) for a four wheel wagons able to carry 20 tonnes or more or, for a bogie wagon. 40 tonnes or more.

 

A similar system was used for marking passenger coaches so an A3B5myfi (with the 3 5 m y f and i in a smaller size. would be a First (A)/Second (B) composite coach with 3 first and 5 second class comparments, steel body (which was relevant for train compositions), bogies, screw brake in the coach and corridor connections.

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

3 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

,VB' is 'Voie et bâtiments'  ie ' Civil engineers' stock. Not sure about 'MT'; Material et Traction'? The UIC might have a lexicon on their site

East West Divide's answer is correct. There was also an EX service marking for Service d'Exploitation (traffic department but signalling came under that as well ) though I'm not sure what that would have included apart from signalling. I've never seen that marking on a wagon though. 

[Gordonwis]

On 21/10/2023 at 22:49, BillB said:

Thanks very much, I never thought of googling the question in French!

Best Regards,

Bill.

 

 

Web best practice is always to try and put in a phrase of the language of the territory you are seeking information on - you are much more likely to get a good web site or page - which you can then pick out and translate either from your own language knowledge or machine translation. For example if I am looking for information on French lines, I put a search phrase such as " la ligne SNCF Nantes - Chateaubriant", or for a Swiss rolling stock query I would put "triebfahrzeuge RhB"

 

 

.

[Gordonwis]

On 22/10/2023 at 01:10, Pacific231G said:

East West Divide's answer is correct. 

 

 

Indeed. What I have never researched is what the additional number stood for. When I griced the last 141Rs at Thouars in 1971 the hopper wagons in the Gouraudiere quarry trains we saw  were marked '4VB'

 

Incidentally - on that trip we ran into the celebrated French railway author Andre Lepage who had a second home nearby and invited us for tea!

[Gordonwis]

Gouraudiere quarry:

 

Here are two of my late father's slide shots - an one of my attempts on a Agfa rapid plastic point and shoot with monochrome film...

 

29/7/71 - we waited for a week for the newly allocated 66000 diesels to be rested and the 141Rs given a day out - 141Rs 262 and 462 doing the honours

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Gordonwis

[31A]

9 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

When I griced the last 141Rs at Thouars in 1971 the hopper wagons in the Gouraudiere quarry trains we saw  were marked '4VB'

Could perhaps be the SNCF regional prefix?

 

These numbers were carried on locos in the painted box on the left hand end (when looked at head on) of the buffer beam but French bureaucracy being what it is, they were also applied to just about everything else, including for example the different volumes of the passenger timetable.

 

https://www.aandhmodels.co.uk/france-1704-c.asp

 

[Pacific231G]

14 hours ago, 31A said:

Could perhaps be the SNCF regional prefix?

 

These numbers were carried on locos in the painted box on the left hand end (when looked at head on) of the buffer beam but French bureaucracy being what it is, they were also applied to just about everything else, including for example the different volumes of the passenger timetable.

 

https://www.aandhmodels.co.uk/france-1704-c.asp

 

Could well be. Thouars itself was in Region 3 (Ouest) on the old Etat main line to Bordeaux and the line to les Sables d'Olonne, but it was very close to the regional boundary with Region 4 (Sud-Ouest)   with a line going east to Arcay and Loudon which were both in 4. 

[Gordonwis]

15 hours ago, 31A said:

Could perhaps be the SNCF regional prefix?

 

These numbers were carried on locos in the painted box on the left hand end (when looked at head on) of the buffer beam but French bureaucracy being what it is, they were also applied to just about everything else, including for example the different volumes of the passenger timetable.

 

https://www.aandhmodels.co.uk/france-1704-c.asp

 

 

 

Wow - that's a great call - I had never thought of that in all these years.

 

It seems to be confirmed by a ballast wagon model by Mistral that has a '2 VB' gare d'attache Longueau (Reseau Nord = 2 !)