Is it possible to install point Seep point motors on already ballasted track?

[MikuMatt81]

Hello everyone!

 

   I am two years into building my first layout and I am really pleased with my progress, however when I first conceived the idea of building a layout, I had only ever planned to switch the points manually by hand, and so regrettably I never pre-drilled any holes under the track.

 

I actually have a single point motor installed inside my hill / tunnel out of necessity, so I already have a CDU and all the wireing ready to add motors to the rest of the layout... but there is still that issue of no pre-drilled holes.

 

So my question is, does anyone have any ideas or tips on how I can drill the holes from underneath the board without damaging the delecate point mechanism?

 

Perhaps some form of hole saw? or maybe its just not possible to drill the holes at this late stage?

 

 

thanks for any help!

 

Matthew

 

 

[teaky]

It would be possible to drill a very small hole from above using the hole in the tie bar as a guide but this would need to be done very carefully in order to keep the drill vertical and not snap it.  You could then use the hole to centre a larger drill from below, taking care not to drill too far up, i.e. just break through the surface.  It would be best to temporarily hold the tie bar in the centre of the track when drilling from abaove or allow for it being off centre when drilling from below.

 

A variation on the above would be two holes, one either side of the tie bar, then mark the centre point below before drilling.

 

Have you considered operating the points from the side with the point motors mounted above or below the baseboard?  There are surface mounted point motors and adapters available from a number of manufacturers.

 

[5BarVT]

For drilling up from below, a drill depth stop would help.  You might need to stop a little below the surface and then try and weaken the remains by hand.

Paul.

[MikuMatt81]

57 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

For drilling up from below, a drill depth stop would help.  You might need to stop a little below the surface and then try and weaken the remains by hand.

Paul.

I quite like this idea!!  I was also wondering about using a Diamond hole saw intended for tiles etc, as it wouldnt have a pilot drill bit in the centre to worry about.....

[MikuMatt81]

1 hour ago, teaky said:

It would be possible to drill a very small hole from above using the hole in the tie bar as a guide but this would need to be done very carefully in order to keep the drill vertical and not snap it.  You could then use the hole to centre a larger drill from below, taking care not to drill too far up, i.e. just break through the surface.  It would be best to temporarily hold the tie bar in the centre of the track when drilling from abaove or allow for it being off centre when drilling from below.

 

A variation on the above would be two holes, one either side of the tie bar, then mark the centre point below before drilling.

 

Have you considered operating the points from the side with the point motors mounted above or below the baseboard?  There are surface mounted point motors and adapters available from a number of manufacturers.

 

I would prefer not to use a surface mounted one as I dont look the look of them, and also I have a bunch of Gaugemaster PM2's already in my toolbox read to be used :)

[Dave John]

The issue with hole saws without a pilot drill is getting them started without them skittering about all over the place.

 

I found a way round this is to get a bit of 12 mm  scrap ply about 3 inch square and use the hole saw with pilot drill to make a hole in it. Drill through the baseboard from above , say 1mm next to the centreline of the point tie bar. The bit of scrap ply can then be screwed to the bottom of the baseboard offset a bit so it is centred on the tie bar. This will act as a guide for the holesaw which can be then used without its centre drill. 

 

Just take things carefully and slowly. The guide can be unscrewed when you are nearly through the baseboard, the last bit being removed carefully with a burr in a minidrill. 

 

Good luck. 

 

 

 

[MikuMatt81]

5 minutes ago, Dave John said:

The issue with hole saws without a pilot drill is getting them started without them skittering about all over the place.

 

I found a way round this is to get a bit of 12 mm  scrap ply about 3 inch square and use the hole saw with pilot drill to make a hole in it. Drill through the baseboard from above , say 1mm next to the centreline of the point tie bar. The bit of scrap ply can then be screwed to the bottom of the baseboard offset a bit so it is centred on the tie bar. This will act as a guide for the holesaw which can be then used without its centre drill. 

 

Just take things carefully and slowly. The guide can be unscrewed when you are nearly through the baseboard, the last bit being removed carefully with a burr in a minidrill. 

 

Good luck. 

 

 

 

 

 I love the idea of the plywood guide - I will definitely make one and use it!

 

And do you think the diamond hole saw would work ok on the wooden baseboard, or would it be better to try something else?

 

btw what is a burr please?

[Dave John]

I think a diamond one would try to burn its way through, a good quality hole saw would cut. 

 

A burr is this sort of thing;

 

 

Search burr for minidrill, loads available, very useful for modelmaking.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Dave John

[MikuMatt81]

28 minutes ago, Dave John said:

I think a diamond one would try to burn its way through, a good quality hole saw would cut. 

 

A burr is this sort of thing;

 

 

Search burr for minidrill, loads available, very useful for modelmaking.

 

Ahhh i see,  I will get myself a few burrs then.

 

Do you know of any hole saws that dont have a pilot drill bit in the center?

[Dave John]

Proper hole saws consist of the hole saw and the mandrel. This sort of thing;

 

 

 

The centre drill is held in the mandrel by a screw in the side so you can adjust or remove it. 

[teaky]

I must be missing something here.  Is there a reason why you would use a hole saw when you only need a hole a few millimetres in diameter?  I would use a standard brad wood drill bit for drilling from below, i.e. the kind with a tiny central point that allows for precise positioning before starting to drill.

[Dagworth]

An alternative is to drill a 2mm diameter hole about a cm away from the tie bar from above the board, and insert a 2mm diameter brass tube that is the length of the baseboard depth. This gives a good pivot point. Into the tube insert a length of brass wire with bends at the top to make it the right length to fit into the hole on the tie bar from above. This wire can then be bent at a right angle under the board and fitted to a peco point motor fitted to one of their adaptor bases https://peco-uk.com/collections/electric/products/turnout-motor-adaptor-base-with-over-centre-spring

 

Much easier than trying to drill holes upwards into already existent points.

 

Andi

Edited October 28, 2023 by Dagworth

[Wheatley]

Dagworth's crank sounds neat, or what Teaky said (both posts). Pilot hole from the top then a wood bit with the little built in centre point thing (I'm not  a carpenter, can you tell ?), make a depth stop (or depth indicator) by wrapping a bit of tape round the bit 1mm less than the thickness of the base board, then poke out the remainder with either a thin flat screwdriver, or if you drill a wide enough hole to start with, a 6mm chisel twisted in the hole. Drill a decently large hole too, 8mm at least, then you aren't having to try to widen it later because your points won't quite snap over properly. It's a bodge but it works. 

 

If not then mount your PM2 below the board but off to one side with the operating pin sticking up through a hole and linked to the Peco tie bar with a bit of wire in tube. Doesn't need to be pukka Gem wire in tube, a bit of 0.5mm hard brass wire in a bit of 0.5mm ID tube will do. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Wheatley

[DCB]

The old school way was a bell crank from a motor under the baseboard   with a short length of wire to the point.The H&M motors had the bell crank built in.  In some ways its a bit untidy  but it's the way the full  size railway operates points.     The worst  way to operate points in my view is a Peco or similar motor directly  under a ballasted point, it doesn't end well and you can't easily winkle out the point with motor attached when it's ballasted in.   while a long vertical link for a lower mounted motor can lead to flexing and binding causing poor performance of the assembly.

I use adaptor bases and surface mounts in  some hidden areas where space is not an issue and largely Bell cranks with motors underneath where space is sparse.and for for visible points though far from all my visible points have working motors.  Its work in progress, and its slow progress.

Edited October 30, 2023 by DCB

[F2Andy]

I would try it out on some scrap wood of the same thickness first to see how it goes - or even somewhere on the baseboard where it will not be seen. Very easy to drill too far and break the point.

[bootneckbob]

The way I've got around this is to remove the ballast around the point enough to slide a very thin piece of metal under the point mechanism; I used a piece of DCC power base. When you drill up from below the metal will protect the mechanism. Marking the area to drill, pilot from above etc is all as standard.

 

Oh, and be really gentle.

[rogerzilla]

Since real point machines are surface-mounted, the industry just needs to work on proper miniaturisation.  I don't know how feasible it is to get the required force with such a small motor or solenoid.

[5BarVT]

4 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

Since real point machines are surface-mounted, the industry just needs to work on proper miniaturisation.  I don't know how feasible it is to get the required force with such a small motor or solenoid.

Knowing how thin the wire is on a 12” machine, just looking at a 1:76 wire should break it!

Paul.