PortLineParker Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 Hi all, I'm about to embark on a rather ambitious project - modelling the entirety of the S&D mainline from Bath Green Park through to Bournemouth West around 1957/1958. Granted, this isn't a physical model - it is being produced for a rail simulator but I hope no one minds me posting here. I've had a look through the forums and online but so far haven't found anything, so apologies if it has been asked elsewhere. This thread will hopefully be somewhere I can ask questions that someone is able to answer! My first 2 questions are these; in several pictures of Midford looking North there appears to be a cast speedboard on the left hand side of the track, just beyond the end of the platform. The various images I have seen this in are all quite pixelated and in some it looks like 40mph and in others it looks like 60mph! Does anyone know what the limit was North of Midford? Secondly, I've been looking at the rather tall starting signal when heading South from Evercreech Junction. Does anyone know just how tall this signal was? Thanks in advance - this project is set to be rather big but I'm very much looking forward to making a start! I've previously produced the modern day Swanage Railway so I'm hopeful that I can do the S&D justice! Cheers, PLP 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 11 minutes ago, PortLineParker said: pictures of Midford looking North are rather rare? I found nothing on Flickr. Someone will have something (surely?) 12 minutes ago, PortLineParker said: I've been looking at the rather tall starting signal when heading South from Evercreech Junction. Does anyone know just how tall this signal was? I don't know an exact answer, but if I had to guess I'd use the height of the top of the footbridge as a measure and extrapolate from that. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortLineParker Posted November 12, 2023 Author Share Posted November 12, 2023 Hi Keith, Thanks for your reply - I'll have a look at the footbridge and see if I can come up with a reasonable figure. One picture on Flickr is at the following link: https://www.flickr.com/photos/trains-travel/24813117845/in/photolist-2mrQzKT-DNDHsD-dTutpr-29vU2VZ-2oXeLj1-2oXgRhn-2oXfPSe-2oXeLEG In this view in 1965 it looks as if indicates either 55 or 65mph but the other one I've seen (I think in one of Ivo Peter's books though it may too be online) shows the sign in white and it looks as if it is 40 something. I'll see if I can find it. Cheers, PLP 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted November 12, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 12, 2023 Hello PLP An Ivo Peters photo taken 12 August 1961 shows the speed limit sign clearly as 55mph. You can find the photo on page 61 of Mike Arlett's book, The Somerset & Dorset at Midford. Chris Osment (Railwest on here) will almost certainly be able to answer the signal query. I guess he will see 'S&D' in your title and respond. If not, I will nudge him. Brian 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 No need to nudge, I'm here already....:-) I would agree that the PSR shows 55. Sadly I don't have the answer to the signal post height, as such details are not recorded in any known records other than occasional references to replacements in some Signal Instructions. I know that at least one S&DJR simulation was produced a few years ago, so maybe the author of that (is 'author' the right term, or could it be 'creator' perhaps) may have the answer already. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffers Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 "...Secondly, I've been looking at the rather tall starting signal when heading South from Evercreech Junction. Does anyone know just how tall this signal was?..." I might be able to give you an idea on this. I few years ago I was involved in the partial dissembling of a OO-gauge scratch-built model of Evercreech Junction. A beautifully crafted and most effective layout this was, and good enough to be highlighted in a popular model railway magazine in 2010. I was offered some items and the station building is now incorporated in my own layout. I rescued some signals, one being the very tall signal in question. The measurements of this model signal are 19.2 cm from base to finial top, and 16.2 cm from base to signal platform. This equated to 48 feet and 40.5 feet in reality. I am not sure how the builder came to these figures but am sure he very carefully researched it and may well have used photographs, including the collection of the late Eric Rimmer (available from the S&DRT) to work out the measurements from adjacent buildings. He also visited the Junction post -closure and measured up the remaining buildings. So I have a great faith that these measurements will be close to reality. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortLineParker Posted November 16, 2023 Author Share Posted November 16, 2023 Hi geoffers, That's very useful, thank you very much. I'd calculated a very rough figure of 36 feet minimum but this did look a little small, so the 48ft total height sounds more likely. Many thanks, PLP 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 It should be noted perhaps in this context that, where a signal 'height' is quoted in some official document (eg a Signal Instruction or similar), AFAIK the practice was for the figure quoted to relate to the height of the arm above the rail head. The actual post of course would extend some (variable) distance further above the arm, and if the post was set back some way from the track on an downward-sloping embankment than the visible part could be even longer still. Conversely, some signals quoted with a relatively high-ish height might actually be quite short posts, but stuck high up on the side or top of a cutting. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortLineParker Posted November 23, 2023 Author Share Posted November 23, 2023 Thanks all for the responses so far, they've been a great help in refining details. Another one that has me stumped; does anyone know what the 'girder' spanning the tracks in front of the shed at Bath Green Park is? There are several photos of it in the late 50s/early 60s but for clarity I've linked a picture of the Taunton Model Railway Society's layout below. I have tried searching for this but I'm not really sure what it is and as a result the searches are rather vague! Bath Green Park MPD Cheers, PLP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium RobAllen Posted December 2, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 2, 2023 On 23/11/2023 at 00:29, PortLineParker said: Another one that has me stumped; does anyone know what the 'girder' spanning the tracks in front of the shed at Bath Green Park is? According to plate 15 in Bath to Evercreech Junction by Mitchell & Smith: "The overhead conveyor was electrically operated and used mainly for moving bins of ash. It was severed prior to the coal stage rebuilding and never restored" 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortLineParker Posted December 2, 2023 Author Share Posted December 2, 2023 Thanks for that @RobAllen, funnily enough I received a copy of the new S&D Pictorial Atlas the other day and, while it does mention that the girder like structure was used for ash disposal, it gives no further details so this is very useful, thank you. Cheers, PLP 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortLineParker Posted December 7, 2023 Author Share Posted December 7, 2023 Hi all, Sorry, me again - I've had a look through my books but I can't find a definitive answer so I'm hoping someone might know. At Bath Green Park, on the siding leading to the bonded stores no.2 there is, on the 1938 map, an additional siding heading West. This isn't present on the 1960 map but that is less detailed so that isn't to say it was removed by then. Does anyone know when the siding was lifted? I've attached an image below of the 1938 map with the siding highlighted in red for reference. Cheers, PLP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium RobAllen Posted December 10, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2023 On 07/12/2023 at 19:10, PortLineParker said: Does anyone know when the siding was lifted? I've had a quick look through my books here and can't see anything about that siding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortLineParker Posted December 10, 2023 Author Share Posted December 10, 2023 6 hours ago, RobAllen said: I've had a quick look through my books here and can't see anything about that siding. Hi Rob, It's an odd one, I can't find a specific reference to it either and I can't see any trace of it in any photographs so I'm not sure if it was ever there. Like I say, the 1960 map doesn't show it but it also doesn't show the individual lines, points or slips so I can't rely on that. I'll continue to have a dig and see if I can find anything about it. Cheers, PLP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted December 10, 2023 Share Posted December 10, 2023 Cooke merely records it as being lifted 'by 1960'. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortLineParker Posted December 13, 2023 Author Share Posted December 13, 2023 Hi all, I feel I should apologise again but this thread is only going to get longer I'm afraid! At this link (Linked Image) there is an excerpt from the excellent S&D Atlas by Richard Harman Neil Parkhouse. In it, you can see part of the signalling diagram for Bath Junction. If you can see, there is a siding at the bottom (South) of the diagram called 'Hopmead Siding'. The accompanying note states that a ground frame was opened in April 1931 but there is no further information. On maps from 1860, 1933, 1947 and 1960 no such siding is visible however in an image in the same book from 1946 the siding appears to be in place. There is no further mention of it in the book nor anything online as far as I can see, so I was wondering if anyone has further information on it at all? Also, in the same diagram and overlayed on the siding is a signal gantry with 3 arms and an arch through which a track appears to have run. Does anyone know a) which track would have run through the arch (the Hopmead Siding perhaps?) and 2) which lines the signals relate to? I'm aware that this may not be the most coherent message so if you need me to clarify anything please let me know! Cheers, PLP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 (edited) As drawn in an original LMSR diagram the 'arch' would appear to have straddled the Hopmead Siding (although that had been lifted by the time of the diagram copy). My suspicion is that Richard has drawn the bracket further in rear of crossover 9 than was actually the case, as disc 6 was at its foot. 12 was for the Up Main to Midford and 20 was the Up Main to Weston. 8 was for the Shunting Neck and the presence of the lower distant arm would suggest that it was for moves across 9 onto the Up Main towards Weston, with 6 presumably doing moves ahead towards 13? Edited December 14, 2023 by RailWest Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortLineParker Posted December 14, 2023 Author Share Posted December 14, 2023 Hi @RailWest, That's brilliant, thank you. My route is going to be set around 1957/1958 so I think I'm going to omit the Hopmead Siding as it appears to have disappeared by then, and now I know what the gantry signalled I'll be able to signal the rest of the junction! Cheers, PLP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 The attached OS 25" 'snip' shows the Hopmead Siding and IMHO it is quite clear from there that the siding went through the 'arch'. Sadly I can't find a date for that map..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 The "style" of the above OS map extract looks like it's post-war; possibly early/mid 50's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 You may like to read pages 86 and 87 of John Owen's "Life on the Railway". Apparently Hopmead Siding was installed to feed coal drops for a new (1930s) adjacent Co-op coal depot. It had little use by 1948 and had been closed "soon afterwards" and had been lifted by 1953. There is a nice Hugh Ballantyne rear view of most of the signal gantry on page 86, but this shows what was clearly a post-MR replacement. Although looking very LMS-ish with UQ arms on tubular posts, be careful that the WR replaced several signals in the Bath Stn/Jcn area in BR days and these used LQ arms and tubular posts also, but with WR-style finials. You may need to look at more photos than I've had time to seek out to see what would be more appropriate for your period. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortLineParker Posted December 14, 2023 Author Share Posted December 14, 2023 That's very useful information, thanks everyone! I'll have to look at John Owen's book as it's not one I have yet, thanks for the pointer. Cheers, PLP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortLineParker Posted January 15 Author Share Posted January 15 Hi all, I think I know the answer on this one, but thought I'd double check. With the bonded stores no.2 at Bath Green Park, did the sign above the door change from (MR) to (WR) in 1958 when the Western Region assumed control or was it earlier than that? Here's a link to the sign in question if my query was a little ambiguous: Bonded Stores Sign Cheers, PLP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 Surely the infrastructure, but not the operational responsibility, at Bath Green Park passed to the Western Region in 1950. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortLineParker Posted January 15 Author Share Posted January 15 I think you're right, but they didn't assume operational control until 1958, so I'm unsure as to when the sign would have been replaced. Cheers, PLP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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