S&D Minute Details

[bécasse]

With the infrastructure under WR control it was maintained by WR engineering staff (or their contractors) so any repainting or resigning would have been done to WR standards - just look at all those ex-SR stations in the West Country that acquired a chocolate & cream colour scheme during the same period.

 

Operational control basically covered the provision and operation of locomotives and rolling stock and the minutiae of the timetable. I am not quite sure about Bath Green Park itself but the S&D was part of the Southern Operating Area (which is what appeared on WTTs), not part of the Southern Region, they were two separate entities.

[PortLineParker]

From photos, Bath Green Park had 4/52 painted onto the steelwork following a repaint in, well, April 1952. So do you think it is likely then that from 1950 onwards the WR lettering was used in place of the MR?

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[bécasse]

The station was Western Region, and so were the painting gang, at that period, therefore any repaint that involved a sign with a "regional" mention (which would previously have been LMSR/S&DJR at Bath Green Park) would now read some version of RAILWAY EXECUTIVE/BRITISH RAILWAYS/BRITISH RAILWAYS (W)/WESTERN REGION/W R with probably a lot depending on exactly what the sign had previously said and what space was available.

[PortLineParker]

Thanks @bécasse, WR it is then.

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[PortLineParker]

Hi,

 

I've been reading online that engines were not permitted to run through coaling stages due to the likelihood of part of the structure catching fire, which is understandable. Apparently, loaded wagons were propelled up the gradient to the coaling stage and out onto a level siding the other side of the stage where they would then be rolled back into the coaling stage as required.

 

Bath Green Park had a coaling stage, but it looks as if it had a gradient on both sides; i.e. the 'holding' siding on the far side was below the level of the coal stage itself. While this wouldn't be a problem to get wagons down the other side when loaded, as they could presumably be shunted by gravity, how were these loaded wagons then pulled back up the gradient into the coaling stage if a loco wasn't permitted to go through to get to them?

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[PortLineParker]

Hi all,

 

Does anyone have a handy chart/table showing the maximum loads for locos over the S&D? In one of my books (one of Ivo Peter's I think) it gives a load for a 7F and later the 9Fs, but what about the BR 4MT 2-6-0 and 4-6-0s, the BR 5MTs etc.?

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[BMacdermott]

Hello PLP

 

I think you asked for photos of Bath (Green Park) Goods Shed. One below (late 60s) but please respect copyright as I can't recall how it came to me. I am pretty certain I took one in the early 80s, but it's evading me at the moment!

 

Brian

 

 

[PortLineParker]

Hi @BMacdermott,

 

That is absolutely fantastic, thank you very much. That also confirms my theory that the drawings I have are of an earlier build as the office annexe on the left is only single storey in the drawings I have - it looks as if the extension used square windows as opposed to the original arched ones seen on the ground floor.

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[PortLineParker]

Hi all,

 

I know we've had threads on this before, but as they are quite old I wondered if anyone had come across any up to date information.

 

Based on photographic evidence, I know the line north of Midford was 55mph and that Bath Junction itself was 20mph. I also know that in the mid-late 1950s the maximum line speed was 70mph, but I also have a suspicion that in places it was 60mph or less. From the 1955 timetable I have, it would suggest a speed limit of 60mph or so from Midford to perhaps Evercreech Junction and then I'm not sure after that, perhaps 70mph down to Broadstone with restrictions along the way? I think Winsor Hill tunnels had a 40mph speed limit in the 1960s, though I don't know if this was also present in the 1950s though I am assuming it was.

 

Does anyone have more up to date information of what the speed limits were and, crucially, a rough idea as to where they were in operation along the line?

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[RailWest]

Do not forget that, at any location where a train was entering or leaving a single-line section there would be a speed restriction for the collection and/or delivery of the tablet. On those sections of the mainline where the Whitaker apparatus was in use, that would have been 40MPH, but a lower speed would have applied on the Branches (not fitted with Whitaker) and also in cases on the main line where hand-exchange was being done for any reason. I'm not sure of the 'hand' limit, but probably 10MPH.

[Combe Martin]

Not in the 50's, but there is a report of the rebuilt West Country 'Dorchester' in the early 60's  going though Bailey Gate at at least 85 MPH being driven by a certain Mr Smith. 

 

Something to do with Mr Beale being right up his backside with the southbound Pines ! 

 

Since reading the above quote, I recall reading somewhere else that it was more like 95 !, but where I got that from escapes me at the moment.  

Edited March 4 by Combe Martin

[geoffers]

"...Not in the 50's, but there is a report of the rebuilt West Country 'Dorchester' in the early 60's  going though Bailey Gate at at least 85 MPH being driven by a certain Mr Smith..."

 

Having seen some of the late 1950s and early 1960s expresses fly down the 1in100 descent southwards into Bailey Gate Station not surprised by that.

 

[PortLineParker]

Thanks everyone, it's a tricky one as few photographs seem to exist of the speed boards. I know there were a couple near Winsor Hill and another at Midford, plus one at Bath Junction. I've put 40mph restrictions in at Midford viaduct and Winsor Hill and then Evercreech Junction to Midford as 60mph, then north of Midford to Bath Junction as 55mph. I imagine the rest of the mainline south, especially from Templecombe will be 70mph with the occasional restriction. Thanks for your input all!

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[RailWest]

There was certainly some form of PSR north of Wincanton, as the indicators can be seen in this photo...

[PortLineParker]

Very interesting, I hadn't come across any mention of that yet though in fairness I haven't reached Wincanton yet. Do you know what year that photo is from?

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[RailWest]

Sorry, no info on the date.

[bécasse]

The board on the right with its back to the photographer would have had a [ T ] indication indicating the terminal point of the PSR on that road. Southern Railway PSR indicators were rare beasts, usually only installed where there was nothing else to help a driver identify his position, clearly here there is a signal but presumably the other end of the PSR wasn't so obvious.

 

The standard top limit on the Southern Railway for steam traction was 85 mph but a lower overall limit may well have applied over the whole S&D, the introduction page to Southern-produced WTTs would have stated it whatever it was.

[PortLineParker]

70mph on the S&D, though I think from 1960 (maybe 1962?) the 9Fs were limited to 60mph due to hammer blow.

 

Interestingly the 1955 timetable works out as an average of only 25mph on services.

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[RailWest]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

The board on the right with its back to the photographer would have had a [ T ] indication indicating the terminal point of the PSR on that road. Southern Railway PSR indicators were rare beasts, usually only installed where there was nothing else to help a driver identify his position, clearly here there is a signal but presumably the other end of the PSR wasn't so obvious.

 

The standard top limit on the Southern Railway for steam traction was 85 mph but a lower overall limit may well have applied over the whole S&D, the introduction page to Southern-produced WTTs would have stated it whatever it was.

Incidentally, I got that photo originally as a result of a query that someone raised about those markers some years ago. Whether it was on here or elsewhere, I don't recall. If I can find the original messages sometime there may be a reference to the date...

[H2O]

On 24/02/2024 at 23:51, PortLineParker said:

Hi all,

 

Does anyone have a handy chart/table showing the maximum loads for locos over the S&D? In one of my books (one of Ivo Peter's I think) it gives a load for a 7F and later the 9Fs, but what about the BR 4MT 2-6-0 and 4-6-0s, the BR 5MTs etc.?

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

If you're still looking I believe there are some tables of loadings for lots of different locos that operated on the S&D in the book "The Somerset & Dorset from the Footplate" by Peter Smith.  I think the later version is a combined edition of 2 earlier books.

[melmerby]

On 12/11/2023 at 14:54, PortLineParker said:

Secondly, I've been looking at the rather tall starting signal when heading South from Evercreech Junction. Does anyone know just how tall this signal was?

Measuring the footbridge against the signal in the close up photo in the Judge & Potts book, the signal is 2.51x higher than the footbridge parapet, above the platform surface.

[PortLineParker]

Thanks both; @H2O I knew I'd seen a table somewhere so that's probably it, thank you. I'll take a look tomorrow.

 

@melmerby thank you too for that, I've reached a rough conclusion of 40ft which I think is what I'll end up going with. I have a 30ft model currently in game and while it looks good it's definitely too small so I reckon a 40ft would fit the bill.

 

Cheers,

 

PLP