43xx Moguls in BR lined green livery

[petrox]

Dapol have one of their upcoming 43xx Moguls finished in BR lined green / early crest livery. Were many 43xx finished in this livery?  Somewhere I think I have seen a photo of a 43xx in lined green on Royal Train duty, but possibly with late emblem.

 

Thanks in advance for any info.

 

Pete

[Hal Nail]

 Very few. See here:

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1948.html

 

probably worth editing the title otherwise you'll get chapter and verse on lined green with late totem!

Edited November 12, 2023 by Hal Nail

[petrox]

Thanks for the info - Dapol's model of 5330 appears on the list of locos with lined green / late crest, whereas 4358 is not on the early emblem list - so maybe 5330 is the correct way to go.

 

Pete

[martinT]

1 hour ago, petrox said:

Thanks for the info - Dapol's model of 5330 appears on the list of locos with lined green / late crest, whereas 4358 is not on the early emblem list - so maybe 5330 is the correct way to go.

 

Pete

4358 did carry lined green livery with a small 1st emblem. I think I can post this photo as it was posted on ebay 9 years ago:

 

Note that the tender fender is lined too.

 

My list of Mogul photos is here, where the livery is discernable it is given (altho' in later years it wasn't). The list hasn't been updated since Feb 2020:

mogul-listing-mjt.xls

Edited November 13, 2023 by martinT
Tender fender comment added

[Cwmtwrch]

There is a colour photo of 4358 by R C Riley in his "The Heyday of Swindon and its Locomotives" taken 16/6/1957 on Swindon shed; the above photo must have been taken  from very slightly to the left of Riley's position on the same day. He refers to 4358 having been overhauled at Caerphilly, explaining that the red-painted reversing rod was their distinctive trade mark. This may also explain the lined out side rave on the tender, which may be unique to this engine.

[martinT]

9 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

. This may also explain the lined out side rave on the tender, which may be unique to this engine.

My list has photos of lined fenders on: 4358, 6364, 6372, 6385, & possibly 6353 - all with the small 1st emblem. It was certainly short-lived livery variation.

Edited November 13, 2023 by martinT
typo

[Miss Prism]

Martin, you can add 6389 to your lined fender list:

 

 

[martinT]

On 13/11/2023 at 11:42, Miss Prism said:

Martin, you can add 6389 to your lined fender list:

 

 

Thanks Russ - that's very interesting because it has the 2nd emblem - the only one I know of! Can you give me a reference to the photo so it can be located in future. 6389 looks ex-works so I'm guessing 1957. It only lasted until September 1960 so a relatively early withdrawal for a 63xx. But it still has Inside Steam Pipes (ISP) so if a rebuild of the front end was needed it wouldn't have been authorised in 1960.

Edited November 14, 2023 by martinT

[Miss Prism]

Martin - can't remember where I got that from - almost certainly a crop of a larger low-res pic. It is 1957, and is likely to be between March of that year, when late crests are thought to have made their first appearance, and before July of that year, when cessation of Churchward 3500g fender lining was ordered.

 

 

[Harlequin]

6 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Martin - can't remember where I got that from - almost certainly a crop of a larger low-res pic. It is 1957, and is likely to be between March of that year, when late crests are thought to have made their first appearance, and before July of that year, when cessation of Churchward 3500g fender lining was ordered.

 

 

Here it is, on Flickr:

Starcross, July 1957 according to the caption.

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Harlequin

[Miss Prism]

Excellent, July 1957.

 

I'm still wondering where I got my pic from, given that flickr pic has only been uploaded very recently. (And which I can now link to.)

 

Note (RTR manufacturers) how dark that loco green is.

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Miss Prism

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

There is a colour photo of 4358 by R C Riley in his "The Heyday of Swindon and its Locomotives" taken 16/6/1957 on Swindon shed; the above photo must have been taken  from very slightly to the left of Riley's position on the same day. He refers to 4358 having been overhauled at Caerphilly, explaining that the red-painted reversing rod was their distinctive trade mark. This may also explain the lined out side rave on the tender, which may be unique to this engine.

 

E R Mountford refers to this in his ‘Caerphilly  Works’ book.  The loco was the first tender engine dealt with at the works to receive BR lined green livery and IIRC there was some confusion or misunderstanding over the tender lining.   

Edited November 13, 2023 by The Johnster

[Hal Nail]

What is very hard to tell all these years later, is how common some of these "rare" examples were, or whether they were more common that we think but didn't last long so just didn't get photographed. Given we keep unearthing more and more variations, I suspect there was very little that didn't appear somewhere, even if very briefly!

 

So far nearly all of my locos have turned out to have the rare right facing totem. Fortunately only one side is wrong!

Edited November 13, 2023 by Hal Nail

[The Stationmaster]

On 13/11/2023 at 14:05, The Johnster said:

 

E R Mountford refers to this in his ‘Caerphilly  Works’ book.  The loco was the first tender engine dealt with at the works to receive BR lined green livery and IIRC there was some confusion or misunderstanding over the tender lining.   

That is not correct.   Eric Mountford was very clear regarding the painting of both 6308 and 4358   The first tender engine to be painted at Caerphilly in lined green in accordance with the second instruction (which extended lining out to smaller greenrn livery engines) was 6308 but the tender was incorrectly lined out in a single panel  which extended up onto theh fender with the top line more or less in the centre of the fender.  4358 was the second tender engine Caerphilly painted in lined green  and as far as Caerphilly was concerned it was correctly painted with a separate lined panel on the fender.   Both were painted in early 1957

 

Both carried the (small) early emblem as they were painted before Caerphilly received the instruction regarding the new emblem.  Caerphilly painted the reversinfg rod of tender engines red until it was instructed by Swindon to desist from the  practice,  The last engine to come out of Caerphilly with red reversing rod was 6345 at the end of October 1958 (it would have had the second emblem)  .

 

Eric Mounyfotd, whi O knew and worjed with on the GW150 organising group, was a stickler for accuracy and had kept copius notes during hos time at caerphily and those notes formed much of teh dtail information in his excellent book about the history of the. works and fro which I have taken the above details

[Miss Prism]

When was the desist red reversing rod instruction issued? (I had thought it was November 1958, but that doesn't align in with your note above.)

 

[martinT]

10 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The first tender engine to be painted at Caerphilly in lined green in accordance with the second instruction was 6308 but the tender was incorrectly lined out in a single panel  which extended up onto theh fender with the top line more or less in the centre of the fender.  

The result looks very odd, there's a photo of it on p76 of David Andrews' monograph on the Moguls. It's credited to Mountford - does it appear in his Caerphilly Works book (which I regret not having)?

[The Stationmaster]

On 16/11/2023 at 10:27, martinT said:

The result looks very odd, there's a photo of it on p76 of David Andrews' monograph on the Moguls. It's credited to Mountford - does it appear in his Caerphilly Works book (which I regret not having)?

It is in the Caerphilly book, one of Eric' Mountford's original photos taken in the works yard.

[The Stationmaster]

On 16/11/2023 at 00:58, Miss Prism said:

When was the desist red reversing rod instruction issued? (I had thought it was November 1958, but that doesn't align in with your note above.)

 

Eric Mountford dates the Instruction to 'November 1958'.  Presumably 6343 would have been the last engine Caerphilly had occasion to paint a reversing rod red on before the Instruction was received?  

 

As I said he was very keen on detail and getting things right and this emerged during the planning for GW150 when it was agreed that the privately owned 94XX was to be included in the exhibition at Swindon.   Eric became somewhat  'unhappy' because it was also decided, and agreed with the owner, that for the exhibition the engine would be renumbered to a running number from the original Swindon built batch which - as he pointed out - had detail difference from subsequent engines.  Alas he lost his argument and it was settled that the engine would indeed be renumbered - which as it turned out never happened due to the cancellation of the exhibition.

[Hal Nail]

On 15/11/2023 at 23:55, The Stationmaster said:

Both carried the (small) early emblem

I've read, but never checked, that the larger early emblem wouldn't fit on a (normally) lined 3500 tender. As far as I know though, most of the early lined 45xx had the large emblem and I thought their tanks were about the same height? (Actually I need to do some work on my 43xx today so will measure this myself later!)

Edited November 19, 2023 by Hal Nail

[Miss Prism]

It was tight on a 45xx flattop.

 

[Hal Nail]

A bit off topic but just out of interest did 4560 carry that livery? Mine came numbed as 4570 but the only evidence of that I've actually seen is a painting rather than a photo.

 

I can't renumber it as 4547 as it's the wrong footplate.

 

Edit: typically, whilst trying to look up LMS wagon axle boxes, I've found 4570 in lined early crest!

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Hal Nail
New info

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

A bit off topic but just out of interest did 4560 carry that livery?

 

Don't know. It was only illustrative of how a large early emblem could fit on such a tank (as per 4547).

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Miss Prism
trypo