Early Crest to Late Crest - Livery changes ?

[wirey33]

I'm no steam buff so sorry if this is an obvious question......

 

When the crests were changed was there any change of livery or were the old crests simply painted over and new ones applied?

 

Would the change have been made a depot level or only at at works visit?

 

If I wanted to change a green lined early crest to a late crest, would the livery be the same or were there subtle differences?

 

Same question for black locos...

 

 

 

 

[DCB]

The livery stayed essentially the same, though on the WR many classes went green around the time the crests were changed.  Normally the crests were changed when the locos or Tenders were repainted as a consequence of overhaul which nescesitated painting new components, I have never heard of new crests applied over old but it could have happened. I am sure they were transfers.    The cycling lion faced forwards and the later ones also faced forwards for a brief period before facing to the left after the heraldry jobsworths stuck their oar in.

The WR swapped Tenders around so Locos routinely changed Tenders at overhaul, which typically were at 78 000 mile intervals 18 months? 

There were very few if any WR Tank locos in Green with original Crest.  The Late crest and Green livery seemed to go together from circa 1956.   The WR Green livery was GWR Green but the cab lining was a panel below the window and the running plate angle was green instead of GW black. 

[The Johnster]

Fundamentally what DavidCBroad said.  There were actually two changes so there was an overlapping period and it is best to work from photographs where you can; in 1956, following board level organisational changes the previous year, the regions were granted greater autonomy with regard to liveries, which led to the WR introducing lined green on many classes on the excuse that they were occasionally employed on passenger work, as well as a version of GWR choclolate and cream for some coaches, and the SR re-introducing malachite green, plain and unlined, for all it's passenger stock.  The LMR painted some Duchess and Princess Royal pacifics in Midland/LMS crimson lake, and the black and silver livery for diesels went out of use to be replaced steam type liveries originally, followed by the various diesel liveries.  Diesel shunting engines started appearing in plain green with the 'D' prefix at this time as well.

 

The crest was changed in 1958, and was initially applied incorrectly (from the armorial device point of view) with the one on the right of the loco facing backwards, corrected shortly afterwards but I do not know the exact date.  Really, the livery changes and the crest change were separate issues that happened at around the same time.  David is correct that the cab side lining of GW locos was a panel below the cab window as opposed to the GW style which surrounded the window, but this had been the case since 1948 and was not a change associated with the 1956 livery changes or the crest change in 1958.

[jjnewitt]

Without wishing to appear overly pedantic the change in crests occured in 1957 and I seem to remember from some research a while ago that it was around March of that year that the first example of the later crest appeared. There was no change in the basic livery; black, lined black and lined green all stayed the same and as has already been said the changes occured during works visits. You could still see locos with the early crest into the 60s.

 

The Western Region started painting some of its locos green, both lined and briefly unlined for some classes, towards the end of 1955 starting with the Counties and Modified Halls. There was an interesting dicussion on this a while back with the official documentation being at odds with what actually happened.

 

You are fine wirey33 chaging green and black locos from early to late crest without changing anything else about the livery. The caveat to that is the Western Region engines that went from black to green as many, but not all, would have changed at the same time.

 

Justin

[pH]

The crest was ... initially applied incorrectly (from the armorial device point of view) with the one on the right of the loco facing backwards, corrected shortly afterwards but I do not know the exact date. 

 

Also not wanting to be too pedantic but ... You are correct that the new crest was originally applied incorrectly on the right-hand side of engines and tenders, but it was wrongly applied with the lion facing to the right i.e forwards. The Bachmann model of 62677 shows this incorrect arrangement, which the prototype did carry - https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/31-136DC_1046962_Qty1_3.jpg It was pointed out that the crest was an official heraldic device, the version approved was with the lion facing to the left (i.e. as shown on the left side of locos) and people could be sent to the Tower of London for messing around with it (perhaps not.) The application of the crest was corrected, so that the lion faced to the left on both sides of locos, that is backwards on the right side.  

[Wonderbolt]

The whole Changing from Early to Late crest is certainly a minefield.

   There are some images of some very ramshackled locos were both early and late crest is visible were the paint has worn and the early crest is showing through (I am sure I have seen one image were both crests and the old GWR shirt button logo can be seen). Being such a large amount of stock needing to be upgraded the transition took a while. Might be worth checking out the colour rail archive website and look at pictures from the late 50's and early 60s the see the miss match of crests from the period.

[Nick Holliday]

According to a previous thread on this topic the later heraldic device was introduced in 1956 and the alteration of the errant wrong- facing lion wasn't carried out until 1959, which surprised me as I thought it was much sooner. With three years between the changes there would have been a substantial proportion of the loco stock with the " wrong " crest on the off- side, perhaps 40% if they were repainted every seven years.

[Clive Mortimore]

The ownership markings on locomotives is not a crest. Up to the change in 1956 locomotives were adorned with a totem. After 1956 it was a heraldic device.

 

A crest is the plume of feathers that would be attached to the top of a knights armoured helmet which was often above the knights shield on his heraldic device.

 

Or found on one of these

 

Edited to add a link to crest.

[Il Grifone]

Not much to add really. The change to the new device took place relatively slowly, being only applied during overhauls (AFAIK). There were probably stocks of the old totem to be used up...  Initially both lions faced forward, but it took a while for 1. the error to be recognised and 2. acted upon (more transfer stocks!). Both lions started facing left from sometime in 1959. (I first saw it on an assembled Kitmaster Prairie tank in a shop window and thought they'd put the transfers on wrongly. This was following our move to the Birmingham area in that year.) Some locomotives were scrapped without ever receiving them.

 

Except for the lions, there were no livery differences on locomotives, apart from the spread of green on the Western Region and the use of Maroon for selected locomotives on the Midland. The coach livery changed to maroon except for the Southern (green - this had however persisted throughout the earlier BR period) and Western named expresses (chocolate and cream - the style was the same as the earlier crimson and cream livery. The shades were not quite the same as the GWR ones.) There were several new named trains in this period....

 

Some locomotives had red backing to the number and name plates. It was bad enough having to paint the locomotives in LNWR livery, so at least this detail was 'corrected' ASAP. The green was restored following a reinterpretation of what was meant by a passenger locomotive - 14xx, 22xx, 41/51/61xx, 43xx, 45xx, 47xx (IIRC), 56xx and all 4-6-0s benefited, but no pannier tanks AFAIK. I believe I am correct in saying that other regions refrained from this practice, only the Southern 'Schools' class switching to green. (Perhaps one of our Southern experts can confirm? - for instance Tri-ang's green L1 was incorrect - the real things were mixed traffic black.)

 

EDIT

 

Add 54xx/64xx to list (possibly 74xx??) and also the VoR locos. Above based on personal observation by a young enthusiast.

[bike2steam]

David, some of the p&p 64xx were repainted green.

[Poor Old Bruce]

According to a previous thread on this topic the later heraldic device was introduced in 1956 and the alteration of the errant wrong- facing lion wasn't carried out until 1959, which surprised me as I thought it was much sooner. With three years between the changes there would have been a substantial proportion of the loco stock with the " wrong " crest on the off- side, perhaps 40% if they were repainted every seven years.

 

I assume the "repainted every seven years" wasn't carved in stone but depended on the condition of the paintwork at overhaul. For example there was a 3F given a boiler change at Derby in about 1962 which didn't get a repaint so the tender kept the old totem. Similarly, in 1963, 70004 William Shakespeare's tender still carried the old totem. If that was the original tender with the 'Festival of Britain' finish, I doubt it would have been repainted before the change so did it still carry the original 1951 'exhibition finish' paintwork in 1963?

[PenrithBeacon]

In the sixties it seems to have been unusual for full repaints to take place. I can remember an Ivatt tank at Newton Heath with the cycling lion in 1967. I believe it's the one preserved on the KWVR but I might be wrong.

 

Sorry Ivatt tank should read Ivatt mogul

[Phatbob]

Not strictly a change of "livery" per se, but around the same time that the late crest started to appear, so did the overhead electrification warning flashes.  So if you are changing an RTR model from "early crest" to "late crest", you may well also have to add the warning flashes.  As always, check against a dated photograph of your prototype.
HTH.

[Karhedron]

The green was restored following a reinterpretation of what was meant by a passenger locomotive - 14xx, 22xx, 41/51/61xx, 43xx, 45xx, 47xx (IIRC), 56xx and all 4-6-0s benefited, but no pannier tanks AFAIK. I believe I am correct in saying that other regions refrained from this practice, only the Southern 'Schools' class switching to green. (Perhaps one of our Southern experts can confirm? - for instance Tri-ang's green L1 was incorrect - the real things were mixed traffic black.)

 

I think some other SR locos also turned green. Eastleigh turned out Standard 3MTs and Standard 5s in green livery too IIRC (or did it just inherit some WR ones). I believe these could be distinguished from WR examples by the way the lining was applied but I cannot recall the exact details off the top of my head.

[bike2steam]

I think some other SR locos also turned green. Eastleigh turned out Standard 3MTs and Standard 5s in green livery too IIRC (or did it just inherit some WR ones). I believe these could be distinguished from WR examples by the way the lining was applied but I cannot recall the exact details off the top of my head.

I think most ( if not all) of the standard 3 tank green repaints were done at Swindon, and Crewe. The 6 x standard 5 green repaints done at Eastleigh, 3 were for the WR, 2 for the LMR, and one for the SR, Eastleigh had spare green paint to get rid of !! Info brought to you via RCTS series 'BR Standard Steam Locos'.

 

edit, As an aside 6 green liveried standard 3 tanks were transferred from the North Wales area to Nine Elms in March/April 1965, I saw all 6 at Willesden, but only 5 made it to Nine Elms, 82032 was found to be a failure at Willesden, and was sent to the scrap yard. Info brought to you ( plus post #10) via personal observations. Apologies to 'coach' :-)

[John Tomlinson]

The Yeadon books on the LNER locos detail out the changes for that area which are quite complex. Gorton Works especially seems to have used up old style transfers for some while on ER freight locos, and the same seems to be true of Horwich for the LM.

 

John.

[Forester]

I think some other SR locos also turned green. Eastleigh turned out Standard 3MTs and Standard 5s in green livery too IIRC (or did it just inherit some WR ones). I believe these could be distinguished from WR examples by the way the lining was applied but I cannot recall the exact details off the top of my head.

 

The SR Schools class also went from lined black to green at this time, with the added complication that the cab lining differed depending on which shed did the work.

[coachmann]

I just love these RMweb threads where people spout "authoritatively" without saying which books they've read or whether is is urban legend.

[The Johnster]

David, some of the p&p 64xx were repainted green.

 

Also some 54xx, both classes with full lined passenger green livery.  Also, some locos received unlined green livery towards the very end of steam, along with plain black engines that would have previously carried mixed traffic lined black. 

 

It's a complex subject, BR during the steam era never managing to establish a standard livery style over all it's steam locos at any one time until all the Vale of Rheidol locos were painted in rail blue.  Best to work from photos if you have a specific loco at a specific time to model.  As noted there was not even standardisation between workshops within regions, never mind regions; on the WR Caerphilly persisted to the end (1963) in painting reversing rods red for example, and I believe Darlington used larger numbers than the other workshops.  Another issue is the painting of red backgrounds to ex-GW number and nameplates, which I believe ended before the 1956 instruction, and that Caerphilly (and possibly other WR workshops) painted numbers instead of providing cast iron or brass numberplates; the painted ones were in the cast style but in yellow paint.  Some cast iron numberplates were provided with yellow painted numbers as well.

[bike2steam]

I just love these RMweb threads where people spout "authoritatively" without saying which books they've read or whether is is urban legend.

Sorry 'coach' altered post #15 accordingly :-)

[Downer]

Not strictly a change of "livery" per se, but around the same time that the late crest started to appear, so did the overhead electrification warning flashes.  So if you are changing an RTR model from "early crest" to "late crest", you may well also have to add the warning flashes.  As always, check against a dated photograph of your prototype.

HTH.

 

 

I think you'll find that the warning flashes were introduced 3+ years after the late crest/heraldic device - most regions didn't see them until 1961.  

[Clive Mortimore]

I just love these RMweb threads where people spout "authoritatively" without saying which books they've read or whether is is urban legend.

Link added to information about crest to my post number 8.

[Forester]

I just love these RMweb threads where people spout "authoritatively" without saying which books they've read or whether is is urban legend.

 

Some of us were there.

[Dunsignalling]

I think some other SR locos also turned green. Eastleigh turned out Standard 3MTs and Standard 5s in green livery too IIRC (or did it just inherit some WR ones). I believe these could be distinguished from WR examples by the way the lining was applied but I cannot recall the exact details off the top of my head.

If I was correctly informed, all the Western Region's green Standard 5s were repainted at Eastleigh, not Swindon, which was far too busy with diesel hydraulics at the time. 

 

Don't know about the 3MT tanks other than that several got green paint but no lining - which definitely sounds more like an in-house WR job.

 

John

[bike2steam]

If I was correctly informed, all the Western Region's green Standard 5s were repainted at Eastleigh, not Swindon, which was far too busy with diesel hydraulics at the time. 

There is a full list in page 30, in volume 2 'British Railways Standard Steam Locomotives' by the RCTS.