In search for a 2-2-2 tank engine.

[GERDecapod]

Hello everyone I'm currently on the search for a suitable 2-2-2 tank engine to model in 00 gauge for a freelance 19th century themed layout I have in mind. Something similar to the relatively modern looking 2-2-2t's built for Pembroke & Tenby railway. I've put an image below fictional 2-2-2t I found on the web, I really hope I might be able to find a similar looking real life prototype, as it is exactly what I'm looking for. I'm really fond of it's outside frame and cylinders. The closest real life prototype I've been able to find is a 2-2-2t built for the Caledonian railway, although unfortunately I'm unable to find any further information about it.

 

[Dunalastair]

2-2-2 tender locos were of course a mainstay of the early railway passenger services. Trains soon got heavier, and more powerful motive power was required. Many of the original machines were rebuilt as tanks, either for use on the increasing number of branches or sold to other independent lines - often to be reabsorbed with the owning railway a few years later. So perhaps basing a tank on an earlier tender design about which more is known could be a good start - and a well tank would mean that the outline might not change much.

[Dunalastair]

For example

 

 

https://www.lbscr.org/Rolling-Stock/Locomotives/Craven/Craven.xhtml

 

Lots of ideas on that website.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

There's this one, from the Furness Railway, without outside frames and inside cylinders:

http://www.lindal-in-furness.co.uk/RailPhotos/FR35.htm

 

Outside frames and outside cylinders isn't impossible by any means, but it almost certainly means outside valves, above the cylinder, with either outside valve gear or inside valve gear and a rocker shaft. Your fictional 2-2-2 in the top picture has neither, which makes it look very odd.

[Compound2632]

Plenty of charming Irish examples if you hunt around.

[GERDecapod]

I'm familiar with many of these tank engines especially the Furness 2-2-2 tanks as I was able to find a report written in 1901 by Mr. WF Pettigrew one of superintendents at the Furness railway. And He goes into detail about every class of locomotive used by the Furness to that point including the various 2-2-2's used by the furness. I'm also familiar the LB&SC's batch of 2-2-2 tanks as Craven designed some really quite good looking tank engines when he was in charge, especially the later Stroudley rebuilds of his Egmont class of 2-2-2 tanks. The Irish examples I'm not so familiar with but I don't think I'll be able to model them unfortunately as my layout is standard gauge.

[Nearholmer]

It strikes me that the nearest you might find in appearance to the fictional one at the start is a Crewe-type 2-2-2 converted to a back tank, which surely somebody must have done, somewhere, and if they didn’t, your fictional railway could.

 

Full outside frame, outside cylinder locos were standard fare on narrow gauge lines, where a key issue was getting good space for the firebox, and speeds tended to be low enough, and clearances great enough, that the disadvantages in terms of width and tendency to cause ‘boxing’,  which made the idea rare in standard gauge (I can’t easily think of a British one) didn’t apply.

 

Here is an Indian beauty, but 5’6” gauge:

 

 

There is a brilliant 1:16 model of a somewhat similar (no sun-roof) loco from the Dublin & Kingstown Railway in the Science Museum (upstairs gallery, above ‘Rocket’), but I think that dates from the 5’3” era.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Nearholmer

[GERDecapod]

33 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

It strikes me that the nearest you might find in appearance to the fictional one at the start is a Crewe-type 2-2-2 converted to a back tank, which surely somebody must have done, somewhere, and if they didn’t, your fictional railway could.

 

Full outside frame, outside cylinder locos were standard fare on narrow gauge lines, where a key issue was getting good space for the firebox, and speeds tended to be low enough, and clearances great enough, that the disadvantages in terms of width and tendency to cause ‘boxing’,  which made the idea rare in standard gauge (I can’t easily think of a British one) didn’t apply.

 

Here is an Indian beauty, but 5’6” gauge:

 

 

There is a brilliant 1:16 model of a somewhat similar (no sun-roof) loco from the Dublin & Kingstown Railway in the Science Museum (upstairs gallery, above ‘Rocket’), but I think that dates from the 5’3” era.

 

 

Bears a striking resemblance to the now preserved 2-2-2t 'Fairy Queen' of the East Indian railway.

[GERDecapod]

Upon some more internet digging I found a crewe type 2-2-2 built for Inverness & Ross-shire railway and then rebuilt into a 2-2-2 tank in 1871 by the Highland railway. Although I'm still on the search for an outside framed and cylindered 2-2-2t.

Edited November 23, 2023 by GERDecapod

[Nearholmer]

It’s certainly an EIR loco. Whether it’s exactly the same class, I don’t know.

 

My point was really to illustrate a vaguely Crewe-style 2-2-2 as a back tank. In SG, the outer frame is closer-in,  see Columbine for instance, but I still can’t find a SG one as a tank engine.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

56 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Full outside frame, outside cylinder locos were standard fare on narrow gauge lines, where a key issue was getting good space for the firebox, and speeds tended to be low enough, and clearances great enough, that the disadvantages in terms of width and tendency to cause ‘boxing’,  which made the idea rare in standard gauge (I can’t easily think of a British one) didn’t apply.

I hadn't realised just how rare they were in standard gauge till I read your comment and started looking for likely examples. Conceivably some Cramptons had double frames for the drivers - it is sometimes difficult to tell - but all the locomotives I half had in mind only had outside frames for the carrying wheels, with inside frames for the drivers.

[GERDecapod]

My mistake I mistook it for a Crewe type at first glance.

[Nearholmer]

3 minutes ago, GERDecapod said:

crewe type 2-2-2 built for Inverness & Ross-shire railway

Well done!

 

I knew there must have been one somewhere.

 

The full outside frame job that you seek must be super-rare. Try the Netherlands, Germany and France for early British-built locos;  you might find one.

[Nearholmer]

I know it isn’t what you want, but a good place to look for early tank engines is among top class contemporary models from engineers and instrument makers, and I really like this one. By Radiguet, 1840s:

 

[GERDecapod]

Funnily enough I was able to find another fictional outside framed & cylindered 2-2-2t for a fictional German railway on the web.

[GERDecapod]

3 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I know it isn’t what you want, but a good place to look for early tank engines is among top class contemporary models from engineers and instrument makers, and I really like this one. By Radiguet, 1840s:

 

Model makers back then certainly had a knack for making some absolutely stunning models. I assume that particular model is a live steamer.

[Paul H Vigor]

Looks like a project for a 3D Printer!

[GERDecapod]

I hope I'd be able to find a similar real life prototype, as I prefer modeling real prototypes and not making freelance models.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

 

The Sharp Stewart maybe would be a good choice I am not sure how many were built but were used on the Furness Railway, Weston Cleavdon and Porteshead Railway & The Watlington & Princes Risborough Railway there might be other as it was a standard design.

 

David

[GERDecapod]

The Sharp Stewart 2-2-2's certainly would be an excellent choice to model.

[Michael Hodgson]

The trouble with 2-2-2s is that they tended to oscillate on their suspension, rotating about the driving axle

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, GERDecapod said:

I assume that particular model is a live steamer.

They all were, so far as I know. That one is 4” gauge. They were made in sizes down to 0, but the smaller they got, the more they were toys and the less instrument/clock making art

[Nearholmer]

I think this one is Anglo-French:

 

[GERDecapod]

Yes the French where quite fond of British simple cylindered designs, I recall reading that some French railways instead of designing there own locomotives, simply bought of the shelf British 4-4-0s. The last 2-2-2 I believe being withdrawn in 1908. Although I'd be intrigued to see a French compound 2-2-2.

[doilum]

2 hours ago, David Bigcheeseplant said:

 

The Sharp Stewart maybe would be a good choice I am not sure how many were built but were used on the Furness Railway, Weston Cleavdon and Porteshead Railway & The Watlington & Princes Risborough Railway there might be other as it was a standard design.

 

David

The second one reminds me of an early attempt at scratch building . The drawing came from a library book "Locomotives worth modelling". Sadly it was never completed and probably still lurks in a long unopened box somewhere.