Locomotives at Devizes before 1939

[DK123GWR]

I have read the main book on this branch, Priddle and Hyde's 'GWR to Devizes', as well as a smaller volume by Nigel Bray. The line was upgraded to Red RA, as I understand it, in 1939 when a bridge was strengthened. There are many photos in the books on the line taken from this point onwards, showing Halls and Castles on the long-distance passenger services (London/Reading to Trowbridge/Bristol). What would these have been hauled by prior to the upgrade? There are no photos from this period.

 

I have observed in J.W.P. Rowledge (and this website, which duplicates much of the relevant information) that when built in January 1938 - January 1939 (before the upgrade), 7802 and 7808 were allocated to OOC, and 7809 and 7814 to Westbury. By nationalisation (the next data point for both sources) all had moved away, to Aberystwyth, Oswestry, and Bristol Bath Road (joining two Manors already in Bristol). The OOC locos both moved away in April-May 1939. This site suggests that it's not clear what OOC would need a Manor for, and I am inclined to agree - except that maybe, as the largest locos permitted, they would have been useful on the Devizes trains worked by Castles from just a few months later. I am not sure which month the bridge was upgraded, but by this point the threat of war (stated in Priddle and Hyde as the reason for the upgrade) would surely have been clear. On this basis, it would seem plausible that they had a brief stint on trains via Devizes, but that is the strongest claim I can make. Can anyone contribute evidence for or against this hypothesis?

 

Furthermore, what would have been used before the Manors? (Or before the Red engines, if the Manors at these sheds were used for something else?) Again, there are no photos, or even textual references, that I have been able to find. The obvious answer would seem to be a 43xx - also a group D engine with Blue RA, and it seems many were allocated at different times to sheds where they might have been used on these trains, including Reading, OOC, and Westbury (though scanning the 1931 timetable, it appears more likely that the locos came from Reading/OOC than Bristol/Westbury.

 

Any thoughts (including reasoned guesswork) would be much appreciated.

[Miss Prism]

Panniers

[Andy Kirkham]

Bulldogs?

[Miss Prism]

Saddle tanks!

 

[bécasse]

19 hours ago, DK123GWR said:

 I am not sure which month the bridge was upgraded, but by this point the threat of war (stated in Priddle and Hyde as the reason for the upgrade) would surely have been clear. On this basis, it would seem plausible that they had a brief stint on trains via Devizes, but that is the strongest claim I can make. Can anyone contribute evidence for or against this hypothesis?

 

The so-called Munich Crisis, which started on 17 September 1938 when Hitler's forces embarked on a low-key occupation of parts of Czechoslovakia and concluded (for the time being) with an international agreement (Mr. Chamberlain's "little bit of paper") on 30 September of that year which effectively allowed Hitler to do what he wanted, can be taken as the point at which the authorities started to take seriously the threat of a forthcoming European war. Prior to this ARP measures, for example, had started to be evaluated but little concrete had been done (sorry for the pun).

 

Just how seriously the Munich crisis was taken can be illustrated by the fact that LPTB's Northern Line, whose under-Thames tunnels south of Charing Cross were considered particularly susceptible to enemy bombing, was suddenly closed at that point to enable concrete plugs to be inserted - during the middle of an evening rush hour.

[Siberian Snooper]

There was an article or two in the much missed GWJ on Devizes, with a good selection of photos and other information. I don't have ready access to my collection to give chapter and verse on what was in the article.

 

 

[DK123GWR]

12 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

There was an article or two in the much missed GWJ on Devizes, with a good selection of photos and other information. I don't have ready access to my collection to give chapter and verse on what was in the article.

 

 

According to the index, three articles by Bill Crosbie-Hill on his wartime experiences. Probably worth looking at anyway, but I'm not sure they'll answer my question about the larger 1930s passenger trains unless something's mentioned in passing.

[Siberian Snooper]

There's a book, that has all the GW express passenger train formations in it for 193*, I can't remember the title.  From memory most Padd trains were formed of 4 or 5, 70 footers and included catering facilities.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Red Engines (but not the Double Red 'Kings-) were definitely permitted via Devizes at September 1938.  The wording of the authority. almost suggests that it wasn't new but might have been amernded from an older authority for 'Heavy Engines' over the route.  

 

Interestingly the 1927 Passenger Train Loads Book (the first the GWR issued) shows loads for both 'Stars/Castles ' and 'Saints' between Patney & Chirton and Holt Jcn.  This booklet does not contain any sort of note indicating that if a load was included that did not necessarily mean that the relevant class of engine might not be permitted over the route clearly implying that loads were only issued for authorised classes of engine

[DK123GWR]

24 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Red Engines (but not the Double Red 'Kings-) were definitely permitted via Devizes at September 1938.  The wording of the authority. almost suggests that it wasn't new but might have been amernded from an older authority for 'Heavy Engines' over the route.  

 

Interestingly the 1927 Passenger Train Loads Book (the first the GWR issued) shows loads for both 'Stars/Castles ' and 'Saints' between Patney & Chirton and Holt Jcn.  This booklet does not contain any sort of note indicating that if a load was included that did not necessarily mean that the relevant class of engine might not be permitted over the route clearly implying that loads were only issued for authorised classes of engine

The September 1931 Service Time Table, on the other hand, says:

 

"HEAVY ENGINES BETWEEN PATNEY AND HOLT JUNCTION VIA DEVIZES.

The following types of engine are prohibited from running over the section named:-"

 

And then lists: Saints, Stars, Castles, Halls, Kings, 83xx, Cities, Counties, Badmintons (etc.), 47xx, County Tanks, 31xx, 2-8-0 tank engines, 56xx, 66xx, 1101 class, and absorbed Red engines of the 0-6-0T and 0-6-2T classes.

 

The sole exception is for Halls, Castles, and 47xx locos, which can run onto the line with freight trains at Patney to allow other trains to pass.

 

It lists loads for partly fitted and accelerated goods trains only for the category including the 43xx and 4001-4045 (all other routes have loads for engines up to 47xx and Castles).

 

 

A September 1938 upgrade seems reasonable though, even if the Manors didn't leave as soon as Red engines were permitted. Between February and April 1939, four new Granges were allocated to OOC and Westbury, at around the same time the four Manors seem to have left. Could it have been a case of keeping the Manors on until there was something suitable to replace them?

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

It has been suggested that I revisit Priddle and Hyde by a modeller who does recall Manors being mentioned, giving a very similar list to the ones I had inferred might have worked on the line based on shed allocations.

[DK123GWR]

On 24/11/2023 at 18:48, Siberian Snooper said:

There was an article or two in the much missed GWJ on Devizes, with a good selection of photos and other information. I don't have ready access to my collection to give chapter and verse on what was in the article.

 

 

I'm hoping to review these at the library this evening, and I'm trying to get access to a few books which might contain some useful information. Unfortunately, the coach formations book is one of the few they don't have a copy of. Incidentally, the only website I can find claiming to have this book in stock was last updated in 2006. Since it doesn't appear in National Library of Wales searches either, I would be willing to go out on a limb and say that the British Library is the only (non-specialist?) library in the country to have a copy (I'm assuming it does because it legally has to, but can't check because of the recent cyber attack).