Short branch/local train formations in 1970

[Lacathedrale]

I’m trying to figure out what carriages I might require to have, at least a token representation of a branch or local service in the north eastern region in 1970 (plus or minus a few years).

 

My chosen Motive power has a significant overlap with the Scottish region and so carriages that can perform double duty are an advantage, but this is not a key consideration.
 

Additionally, the layout is a bitsa-station so the full train need not be depicted. 
 

BSK-CK or BCK-SK or BG-CK seem like obvious choices for the shortest trains (if not just a BCK by itself). Strengthened with an additional brake vehicle, and more second-class accommodation either in the form of an SK or TSO.
 

it is my understanding if we turn the clock forward a few years (or go north of the border), then there would be a higher preponderance of BSO and TSO coaches?

Conversely if we turn the clock back by two or three years, then presumably we would also see the final Thompson Gresley and Bulleid coaches mixed into mk1 rakes, before withdrawal in ‘68? Would the consists have differed significantly? 

 

- Would the trains have had brake vehicles at both ends in 1970?

- Was the RMB a particular idiosyncrasy of the far north line, Or would it have been seen on other branch services? I am assuming it wouldn’t! 
- Was there any particular rule of thumb combining open and corridor coaches in the same train? I.e position?

 

While I’m here, I may as well ask a livery question or two  - my understanding is that between 68 and 72 one would see both blue and green locomotives with either small panels or full yellow ends, both with and without the D-prefix on their pre TOPS numbers?

 

I assume at this point all coaching stock would be in blue and grey with the exception of those pre-nationalisation designs in my hypothetical 1968 version (which I assume would be in a very weathered maroon) 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Lacathedrale

[Jeremy Cumberland]

What sort of branch are you thinking of. Most branch lines in Britain were using DMUs by 1968, and the north east seemed particularly fond of them, with even the long journeys out to Whitby, along the coast via Hartlepool and Sunderland and between Newcastle and Carlisle being (almost?) entirely DMU-worked.

[The Johnster]

There were very few Thompsons after 1966, or Bullieds after 1967, and though some Gresley buffets survived in blue/grey livery into the 70s, these were used in rakes of excursion stock and not on short train branchline duties.  For a traditional BLT in 1970 you need a dmu, but loco hauled stock was found in short rakes on longer runs in the Scottish Region.  But not where it overlapped with the North Eastern!

 

Brake vans were not required at both ends at this time, and up to ten passenger-carrying vehicles could be marshalled behind the brake. 
 

Loco liveries between 68 and 72 were as you describe, but there were still plenty of lined maroon liveried mk1 coaches around in 68.  They became much rarer after the turn of the decade; same goes for green dmus. 

[Lacathedrale]

I am going to provision with a class 101 DMU, but I also want a representative loco hauled train, even if it is a little anachronistic

[The Johnster]

Rule one dmu failure cover perhaps? 

[stovepipe]

There were still a few loco hauled Hull - Doncaster and Doncaster - York local trains in 1970. They were CK+BSK, and operated early morning and mid-evening, probably to cater for post and parcel traffic as much as anything.

 

Also York - Scarborough and return which was BSK+SK+BCK, and Leeds - Hull which was BG+SK+CK.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by stovepipe

[Lacathedrale]

Thank you! So I guess opens were less common in these formations south of the border?

 

 

[Stoke West]

52 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

Thank you! So I guess opens were less common in these formations south of the border?

 

 

Barnstaple line had a loco hauled Exeter 1558 to Barnstaple 1755 return forming the 1955 to Basingstoke returning on the 0645 Salisbury  . On summer saturdays several workings were loco hauled , one busy day (1977 i think) at St Davids a class 25 hauled train load 4 or 5 from Barnstaple ran through on the down main to Exeter West then propelled into platform 4 , seeing as the train ran through , without stopping to question the signalled route it would seem to be an expected if not regular move . When i used it last mk1 tso's in the 5xxx series were on it  

[Lacathedrale]

So to summarise what I’ve learnt in this thread:

 

Coaches would’ve all been British railways Mark 1, with a sliding scale of some lined maroon into full blue and grey between 68 and 72. I understand that NPCS lagged behind this somewhat? 

Brake vehicles only necessary at one end and TSO/BSO seen but more likely on the far north and later in the period.

[RichardT]

I’m a bit confused about what you’re asking now. Your initial question was about the North Eastern Region, where the answer is that 95% of branch trains by your period would be DMUs, although a later post did give you a couple of LH exceptions for BR (NE) that you could use. But now you’re discussing “the far north” - so is your question about Scotland? Or did you mean the north-eastern region (no capitals) of Scotland? Because, thinking about it, BR(NE) didn’t exist after 1967.

 

You mentioned an overlap in stock with Scotland - in the period you’re interested in there isn’t much of an overlap in the stock used for small local passenger trains in NE England and in Scotland. Except DMUs.

 

RichardT

[Peter Kazmierczak]

There were some short loco-hauled formations between Newcastle and Edinburgh, but that's mainline rather than branch. 

[C126]

I, too, am confused about which area you require information, but you might like to get a copy of : Vaughan, John. Modern Branch Line Album. Shepperton: I. Allan, 1980.

 

 

I had not come across it before, and picked it up for two quid at Warley yester-day.  It has photographs from the 1960's to publication date from around Britain.  Hope it might be of use to you.

 

 

[Lacathedrale]

@RichardT @C126 to clarify, in order of importance:

 

1. I am primarily concerned with North-East England, i.e. a branch somewhere between Berwick Upon Tweed and Newcastle off the ECML, in the year 1970.
2. Anything which could perform double-duty in a slightly wider time period either side would be handy (although it looks like that's not really the case).
3. Any potential overlap in coaching stock with the Scottish Region that I might model at some future date.

My line of reasoning for points 2 and 3 is that (for example) if a Blue-Grey BSO would have appeared in 1968-72 in NE England, and also be found somewhere in Scotland in the 70's - then that is a far more attractive candidate than something else which is only appropriate for a more narrow time or location- such as a Lined Maroon Thompson SK.

 

I have accepted that DMUs would almost certainly fulfill all passenger services in my fictional branch, but I also want to run a plausible loco hauled passenger train with stock that would be appropriate.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Would your fictitious branch join the mainline facing south or north? If the former, then maybe a mainline loco (a GD 46, 47 or even a 55) might have a turn up the branch on a fill-in duty. If the latter, then you might get a 26 or 27 arriving from Scotland.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

5 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

There were some short loco-hauled formations between Newcastle and Edinburgh, but that's mainline rather than branch. 

Were these short formations? The only examples of Newcastle - Edinburghs I've found look to be full ECML sets (often hauled by Deltics), but there was an occasional DMU to Alnmouth (after Alnwick closed in 1968), which sometimes continued to Berwick. After 1968, there were precious few intermediate stations open north of Alnmouth. Just Chathill, Berwick and Dunbar I think, till you reach the North Berwick branch at Drem.

[Lacathedrale]

You may have rustled me, @Jeremy Cumberland @Peter Kazmierczak - my idea is something that might sit where the Alnwick branch is. I'm not letting research get in the way of a story - I think I have the information, thank you all very much.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I'm now curious about Mk1 BSOs (I can't really imagine you are thinking of Mk2s on secondary trains in about 1970). My memory is that these were rare beasts (even rarer than BCKs), and far less common than TSOs which seemed to get everywhere. You might have several TSOs and still have a corridor brake, often a BFK, but if you had a CK or FK elsewhere in the rake, it would most likely be a BSK.

 

I'm not sure TSOs would have been used on local trains in 1970 though, and @stovepipe's all-corridor formations look like being a better bet.

[stovepipe]

Yes indeed, only 81 Mk1 BSOs, compared to 275 BCKs, and 1,500 BSKs.

[drjcontroller]

14 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Were these short formations? The only examples of Newcastle - Edinburghs I've found look to be full ECML sets (often hauled by Deltics), but there was an occasional DMU to Alnmouth (after Alnwick closed in 1968), which sometimes continued to Berwick. After 1968, there were precious few intermediate stations open north of Alnmouth. Just Chathill, Berwick and Dunbar I think, till you reach the North Berwick branch at Drem.

 

In my time (late '70s and early '80s) there were up to 3 loco hauled stopping trains a day between Newcastle and Edinburgh (and v.v.) calling at pretty much every station including the likes of Manors, Pegswood and Chathill. Formations could be up to 9 or 10 Mark 1s though mostly 6 or 7. Motive power would be anything that Gateshead kicked out (31, 37, 40, 46, 47 or 55). See;

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127282573@N03/34778188536/in/photolist-UZeiNh

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127282573@N03/28094317159/in/photolist-JNAHGB-29TVkHD-2mGjGPc-2mGsjVZ

 

Hope this helps.

 

Douglas

[stovepipe]

4 hours ago, drjcontroller said:

 

In my time (late '70s and early '80s) there were up to 3 loco hauled stopping trains a day between Newcastle and Edinburgh (and v.v.) calling at pretty much every station including the likes of Manors, Pegswood and Chathill. Formations could be up to 9 or 10 Mark 1s though mostly 6 or 7. Motive power would be anything that Gateshead kicked out (31, 37, 40, 46, 47 or 55). See;

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127282573@N03/34778188536/in/photolist-UZeiNh

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127282573@N03/28094317159/in/photolist-JNAHGB-29TVkHD-2mGjGPc-2mGsjVZ

 

Hope this helps.

 

Douglas

 

In 1970 there were two sets of stock working the 07.00 and 08.30 from Newcastle, and the 14.15 and 18.35 returns from Edinburgh. One was 4 coaches BSK+SK+CK+BSK - with a BG and an SLF added northbound (MX), and the other was BSO+2SK+CK+ 2SK+BSO both ways, in the summer only.