Some Epoche 1 Questions

[Keith Addenbrooke]

I recently enjoyed a modest win on the Premium Bonds*, which I put towards a set that caught my eye: a 1989 Fleischmann train pack commemorating 80 years of the standardisation of wagon design in Germany from 1909.  As railways pre-dated German unification, and given the federal nature of German government anyway, my guess is that a common approach across the industry to facilitate interchange traffic and servicing would have been a game-changing development in the advancement of railway traffic across the whole nation.

 

The set I bought seemed to be in mint condition, and I'm still running in the loco when I get time, but it is all in perfect condition, so was a bit irresistable!

 

 

 

I'll post some pictures of the locomotive and wagons separately below, to make it easier for comments.  With sets such as this, certainly in the UK, it'd be common to include a variety of wagons (and loco) that may be of more interest to collectors than an authentic train as seen at the time.  With that in mind, it gives me plenty to ask about...Keith.

 

 

(* for anyone unfamilar with Premium Bonds, they are a UK National Savings and Investment scheme which doesn't pay interest.  Instead, there is a regular prize draw.  Like many of my generation, my parents gifted me some Premium Bond certificates when I was born, and they still occasionally pay out small amounts, such as now 🙂)

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Locomotive:

 

 

I'm not sure if it would be classed as a T16 or T16.1  - the cabside plate says T16 but I don't know if the variants would be noted on the locos themselves?  It was either built, or at least based, in Altona (Hamburg Division).  It would became a DRG Class 94.

 

 

(The hair on the smokebox isn't visible to mewithout maginification  - which is why I didn't remove it!)

 

 

I don't know when 8167 was built, or whether it would have been in this livery from the start.

 

Questions I'm pondering:

1.  When was the red wheels / underframe livery introduced?

2.  Is this a T16 or T16.1 locomotive?

3.  Was it built or based in Altona?

 

In some ways this thread sits alongside those of @BillB here and and here for modelling purposes, as well as my own preliminary Question on which Code track to use?   To answer Bill's question on couplings from his thread:

 

 

(The flat return spring behind the coupler mount is just about visible.  No NEM pocket)

 

 

Light are non-directional but clear (lightbulbs not LEDs on a model of this age).  I run DC so that's no problem, and the body is removed for lubrication by simply undoing a couple of screws.

 

Contikits are my first choice supplier for Continental railways, and this is up to their very high standards, Keith.

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Wagons

As mentioned in my opening post, the set includes a selection of wagons, and I'd be interested in finding out more about any of them.  There is a certain amount of novelty in a set such as this, which I'm happy to accept.

 

A.

 

 

B.

 

 

C.

 

 

 

D.

 

 

 

E.

 

 

 

I don't know if the final wagon E. is a model of an actual one, or a well executed Fleischmann special edition - either way I think it looks the part.

 

All have NEM coupler pockets, unlike the loco.  Fortunately for me I quite like the Fleischmann Profi couplings so I'm happy to keep the set as bought (spares are available still as well).

 

No comment really needed on the quality of the models - suffice to say in my view they stand up to comparison with many models of today.  Keith.

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Here's what I think I've found out about these wagons - please correct my mistakes and complete my gaps to help others as well as me, thanks.

 

A.  already identified by @BillB as a Steel open wagon for Saxony which also appeared as item 5860 in the 1989 Fleischmann catalogue, identified by @Vinedusk.   The designation Omk was for a 15 tonne (payload) open wagon.  I think 'O 'meant "open / offener" and 'm' meant "more than / mindestens" 10 tonne payload (or: at least 15 tonnes), the 'k' denotes doors fitted for tipping and the bracketed 'u' is "unusable" for military equipment).

 

B.  a Bavarian lidded wagon offered separately as Fleischmann 5864 in the 1989 catalogue.  Km is: 'K' Klappdeckelwagen with 'm' the payload (as above).

 

C.  a longer wheelbase wooden open wagon marketed separately as Fleischmann 5862 (this one), as 5863 with Bavarian crest, or as a Prussian wagon without the brakeman's cabin as 5861.  In the livery of the railways of the Grand Duchy of Baden, or Großherzoglich Badische Staatseisenbahnen (G.Bad.St.E).  Designated Ommk, the 'mm' signifying a payload of at least 20 tonnes.  I note this particular one is also labelled as a Spezialwagen.

 

D.  a Prussian (K.P.E.V.) box van which sold separately as Fleischmann 5866.  Gm is for a covered goods wagon (Gedeckter Güterwagen), with a 15 tonne payload.

 

E.  is a private owner wagon with Bavarian crest.  I think the running number 601 990 would have been appropriate for a private owner wagon.  I think the 'Nurnberg' directly above the running number refers to the period of introduction that began in 1909 with the introduction of standardization and the start of the transition to that system - rather than the home of the wagon (which is on the white label below the running number).  It was in the Fleischmann 1989 catalogue as item 5865 (with 5866 also in the set and 5867 a white Private Owner box van with brakeman's cabin).

 

As I noted at the start of this post, this is only what I've found out using basic internet searches (in English) so there will be every chance I've got things wrong, or missed things out, and I'm happy to be corrected, Keith.

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Keith Addenbrooke

[BillB]

Hi Keith, good info, and thanks for looking at the couplers for me. I think Altona is the allocation. Wiki lists the builders for the class T 16 and T 16.1. Do I see a builder's plate on the tank sides? If the builder is legible that should reveal where it was built. None of the builders listed by Wiki were based in Hamburg (Altona).

 

Best Regards,

Bill.

[Andy Hayter]

Hi Keith,

 

regarding "B" I think this a Pfalzbahn wagon recently brought into the Bavaria, state railway.

 

A bit of history:  The Pfalz, located on the west bank of the Rhine just above Alsace, was part of the Bavarian State and was nicknamed Bavarian Siberia.  The bad guys got sent there to eke out a tough existence.  Railways came in the name if the Pfalzbahn which operated as an independent company into the start of the 20th century when it was incorporated into the Bavarian State Railways even though there was no direct connection between the two parts of the system with the Badische and Wuerttemburgische State railway systems between.

 

Ludwigshafen (shown on the side of the wagon) was a major city in the Pfalz.  

[Keith Addenbrooke]

7 hours ago, BillB said:

Hi Keith, good info, and thanks for looking at the couplers for me. I think Altona is the allocation. Wiki lists the builders for the class T 16 and T 16.1. Do I see a builder's plate on the tank sides? If the builder is legible that should reveal where it was built. None of the builders listed by Wiki were based in Hamburg (Altona).

 

Best Regards,

Bill.

 

Thanks Bill.  You're quite right - there is a builders plate printed* on the side of the tank but I couldn't get it legible even under magnification yesterday so didn't get a photo.  I'm busy today but will have another go when I get a chance, Keith.

 

(* printing details such as this shows the age of the model - today we'd probably expect a raised plate, especially on a higher end model )

[Keith Addenbrooke]

7 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Hi Keith,

 

regarding "B" I think this a Pfalzbahn wagon recently brought into the Bavaria, state railway.

 

A bit of history:  The Pfalz, located on the west bank of the Rhine just above Alsace, was part of the Bavarian State and was nicknamed Bavarian Siberia.  The bad guys got sent there to eke out a tough existence.  Railways came in the name if the Pfalzbahn which operated as an independent company into the start of the 20th century when it was incorporated into the Bavarian State Railways even though there was no direct connection between the two parts of the system with the Badische and Wuerttemburgische State railway systems between.

 

Ludwigshafen (shown on the side of the wagon) was a major city in the Pfalz.  

 

Thank you - an interesting choice for Fleischmann to include in the set, Keith.

[rekoboy]

I think that Fleischmann's location as a company might have had some influence on their choice of wagons. They were based, of course, in Nürnberg in Bavaria until the 2008 take-over by Roco. The former Fleischmann works in inner-city Nürnberg have been demolished and/or converted into apartments. Here is a German-language article...

 

https://gesichterderstadt.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/fleischmann/

[Keith Addenbrooke]

40 minutes ago, rekoboy said:

I think that Fleischmann's location as a company might have had some influence on their choice of wagons. They were based, of course, in Nürnberg in Bavaria until the 2008 take-over by Roco. The former Fleischmann works in inner-city Nürnberg have been demolished and/or converted into apartments. Here is a German-language article...

 

https://gesichterderstadt.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/fleischmann/

 

Thank you - some fascinating photos in the link, and a wonderfully evocative short written piece accompanying them (I confess I auto-translated it).  I agree it would have been a surprise to see anything other than the Nürnberg location for the white Fleischmann box van in the set - whether or not it is an authentic livery.  Keith.

[rekoboy]

And for readers of German, here is the Nürnberg city-guide info on Fleischmann..

https://nuernberginfos.de/traditionsfirmen-aus-nuernberg/fleischmann-modelleisenbahn.htm#fahrt

[Bernard Lamb]

On 27/11/2023 at 15:49, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Locomotive:

 

 

I'm not sure if it would be classed as a T16 or T16.1  - the cabside plate says T16 but I don't know if the variants would be noted on the locos themselves?  It was either built, or at least based, in Altona (Hamburg Division).  It would became a DRG Class 94.

 

 

(The hair on the smokebox isn't visible to mewithout maginification  - which is why I didn't remove it!)

 

 

I don't know when 8167 was built, or whether it would have been in this livery from the start.

 

Questions I'm pondering:

1.  When was the red wheels / underframe livery introduced?

2.  Is this a T16 or T16.1 locomotive?

3.  Was it built or based in Altona?

 

In some ways this thread sits alongside those of @BillB here and and here for modelling purposes, as well as my own preliminary Question on which Code track to use?   To answer Bill's question on couplings from his thread:

 

 

(The flat return spring behind the coupler mount is just about visible.  No NEM pocket)

 

 

Light are non-directional but clear (lightbulbs not LEDs on a model of this age).  I run DC so that's no problem, and the body is removed for lubrication by simply undoing a couple of screws.

 

Contikits are my first choice supplier for Continental railways, and this is up to their very high standards, Keith.

 

It is a T16 1 later BR 94 5-17. Slopping top to front of side tanks being an easy way to tell them apart.

Built from 1913, 1242 built by various companies.

They also had many detail differences and alterations over the years.

They lasted until 1971 in the east and 1974 in the west .

In 1945 there were 687 in the west and 250 in the east.

From my, rather old, source 10 entered preservation, although I have no up to date information.

Mine is in the guise of BR 94 1810 and has the same coupling, but I have replaced it with a Roco head.

Contikits, as you say are very  good suppliers.

Bernard

[Keith Addenbrooke]

On 28/11/2023 at 07:57, Keith Addenbrooke said:

 

Thanks @BillB.  You're quite right - there is a builders plate printed* on the side of the tank but I couldn't get it legible even under magnification yesterday so didn't get a photo.  I'm busy today but will have another go when I get a chance, Keith.

 

(* printing details such as this shows the age of the model - today we'd probably expect a raised plate, especially on a higher end model )

 

This is as good a photo as I can get - I'm not sure if the original printing wasn't very clear, or if it's just the limits of my camera (which is better than my eyesight anyway).  Either way I can't read this, sorry:

 

 

I've been trying to clarify when the red wheels / underframe livery was introduced.  All the sources I've found agree it was a practical choice to shows cracks and defects more easily than black.  I think it became a standard around 1926 (early Epoche II), and had been used in Prussia since 1914 (so would be OK for this loco), but originally dated back to the very first railway locomotives in Germany.  Is that correct? (I'm not at all sure on this one), Keith.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Another addition.  I've owned several locomotives and pieces of rolling stock by Roco - and have been delighted with them all - but this is the first high end "Roco Professional" piece with extra detailing I've had:

 

 

 

Note that the brakeman's cabin still has unglazed windows - as explained by @rekoboy on @BillB's thread here .  I bought it as I was rather taken with the idea of a "Butter wagon":

 

 

I'm not sure I understand the classification though: per earlier posts, the 600 000 series number fits my understanding of Private Owner wagons for the end of Epoche I but in Bavaria rather than Prussia, and this doesn't seem to have any PO markings.  G could be used for covered wagons (Gedeckte Güterwagen).  A Waermeschutzwagen is an insulated van as I understand it (which makes sense).  Please feel free to clarify.

 

The wagon came with standard hook and loop couplings, which I've replaced with spare Profi couplings - I don't know how durable they may be over time, but I do like European close coupling:

 

 

Keith.

[rekoboy]

The Prussian State Railways used city names as a 'Gattungszeichen', a type or category label. 'Der Gattungsbezirk' employed the name of the regional headquarters of a Prussian railway division to indicate the type and intended use of a category of freight wagon - from Altona through Breslau, Cöln etc.

[Ian Morgan]

 

Red wheels - tick.

 

 

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

15 hours ago, rekoboy said:

The Prussian State Railways used city names as a 'Gattungszeichen', a type or category label. 'Der Gattungsbezirk' employed the name of the regional headquarters of a Prussian railway division to indicate the type and intended use of a category of freight wagon - from Altona through Breslau, Cöln etc.

 

Thank you.  It would make sense of the markings on the van - I note the home station is identified as Goerlitz.  

 

When I try and find out about a "Breslau" class I'm being pointed towards a later 1930s DRG type of Om open wagon (with brakeman's cabin).  I wonder if it's possible the KPEV had earlier used the "Breslau" class differently?  Keith.

[rekoboy]

The answer to your question, Keith, is 'Yes'. The Gattungsbezirke of the KPEV do not exactly overlap with those of the DRG.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

When I was looking at UK GWR Branch Line Modelling in OO a while back, I settled on a ‘four train’ model inspired by @Danemouth and his terminus - fiddle yard layout.  I felt it could give a suitably interesting basic operating pattern - even if reality might only see a variety of half that:

 

1.  Branch Shuttle

2.  Branch Passenger

3.  Through Coaches

4.  Local goods

 

Would that translate into German for a KPEV branch around 1920, I wonder? (That’s my next question):

 

 

Just wondered?  (My T16.1 has been posted off for a Service today, so I’m currently a bit light on motive power and filling my spare time pondering!).  I’m not layout planning - I simply realised I’ve accidentally got the same mix in my 15 pieces of rolling stock.

 

I am needing to review my project list (again!) as it looks like we may be moving house in the new year (as noted in my other thread on Track Code).  I do find I keep being drawn back towards Continental modelling - despite my own feeble efforts to resist.  This photo of a pair of pre-owned coaches that only cost me £17 each and have been plonked on the track as they came probably says it all as to why…

 

 

Have a good weekend, Keith.

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Keith Addenbrooke

[rekoboy]

If you decided on your location as a terminus at a fairly small but popular German spa town (Bad Spänzer for example, for film fans!) you could devise a timetable that includes a through Eilzug with bogie corridor stock to Hannover, Berlin  or Köln or wherever, a local Personenzug with compartment stock that just travels to the junction and back, a local goods train that shunts the modest goods facility that has a private siding or two, and light-engine movements to the depot at the junction and back.

Edited December 14, 2023 by rekoboy