15” gauge prototype information needed

[scalerailmodelling]

Hi hopefully this is in the right area of the forum,

 

I am interested in knowing if 15” gauge railways (often termed estate railways) would be capable of being used for a more industrial purpose than rides around a large estate (nothing wrong with that but not my cup of tea at present).

 

I was going to model a 2ft gauge brickworks (Cherry Orchard Lane inspired) and wondered if a 15” gauge railway would have been capable of doing the same work?

 

09 seems to be a more accessible scale to me than 014 so any information or prototypes of 15” gauge industrial lines would be greatly appreciated 

 

Thanks

 

Tim

[009 micro modeller]

This is a common theme for Gn15 layouts although some are a bit more fictionalised. 400mm was a Decauville gauge and used for industrial railways although often hand-worked. Some of the estate railways were heavier and more industrial than others (as opposed to light agricultural use that they’re more usually associated with).

 

Also, the Ravenglass & Eskdale granite crusher operations might be of interest to you. Also at Ravenglass, their Greenbat battery loco was originally 16” gauge (so only slightly wider) and worked in a mine (Storrs Bridge).

 

09 can also be (and often is) used to represent the slightly wider 18” gauge, which was much more common in industrial use than 15”.

[scalerailmodelling]

19 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

This is a common theme for Gn15 layouts although some are a bit more fictionalised. 400mm was a Decauville gauge and used for industrial railways although often hand-worked. Some of the estate railways were heavier and more industrial than others (as opposed to light agricultural use that they’re more usually associated with).

 

Also, the Ravenglass & Eskdale granite crusher operations might be of interest to you. Also at Ravenglass, their Greenbat battery loco was originally 16” gauge (so only slightly wider) and worked in a mine (Storrs Bridge).

 

09 can also be (and often is) used to represent the slightly wider 18” gauge, which was much more common in industrial use than 15”.

Thanks thats really useful, do you know if there is anything you have to do to make it 18” rather than 15”? 
 

for context I am looking at using a kato 110 chassis on n gauge track with a body from evilbay 

 

Thanks

 

Tim

[009 micro modeller]

1 minute ago, scalerailmodelling said:

Thanks thats really useful, do you know if there is anything you have to do to make it 18” rather than 15”? 

How do you mean? Whether you can ‘make it 18”’ depends on whether you can live with the slight gauge inaccuracy (which is similar to the error accepted by people modelling 2’ gauge in 009 or standard gauge in 00). Obviously you can remove or mitigate the gauge error by changing to 10.5mm gauge or reducing the scale to 1:50/6mm/ft (or 1:48 like American 0n18) but that’s complicated in the same sort of way that 014 would be, so I’d probably recommend sticking with 09. Kato chassis sounds a good idea. 

[scalerailmodelling]

16 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

How do you mean? Whether you can ‘make it 18”’ depends on whether you can live with the slight gauge inaccuracy (which is similar to the error accepted by people modelling 2’ gauge in 009 or standard gauge in 00). Obviously you can remove or mitigate the gauge error by changing to 10.5mm gauge or reducing the scale to 1:50/6mm/ft (or 1:48 like American 0n18) but that’s complicated in the same sort of way that 014 would be, so I’d probably recommend sticking with 09. Kato chassis sounds a good idea. 

Ah ok thanks, so in effect if I use the Kato chassis with an 09 body I can call it 18” or 15” in the same way 009 can be 2ft or 2ft 6? Or as you say standard gauge in 00 instead of P4?
 

Thanks again really helpful 

 

Tim

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by scalerailmodelling

[Nearholmer]

There have been a few nominal 16” gauge industrial lines, although whether or not some of them might really have begun as 400mm I’m not sure, the difference being immaterial in the rough and tumble circumstances they were used in. One was the very picturesque (well, some of it) Napton on the Hill brickworks clay pit tramway, which was hand and cable worked, but outside of minng and tunnelling I don’t know of any locomotive worked ones. 
 

There were, I think, 15”, and even 14”, gauge ones in lead mines, but again not locomotive worked.

 

I dabbled in 18” gauge inspired things c25-30 years ago and having built a point (just one!) to 10.5mm gauge and similarly with some RCL wagons, I wimped out and moved to using 9mm gauge. 10.5mm is, of course, popular in the US for 3ft gauge in H0, but it isn’t an easy gauge to adopt in the UK.

 

PS: I’ve just discovered (by googling, not remembering!) that I posted a few very NG photos in a tiny Flickr collection a long time ago! The scanner was a bit rubbish. Click on this and scroll through.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Edge]

One of the principal movers in the 15” world was Arthur Heywood - he experimented with multiple minimum gauge railways and settled upon 15” as the narrowest possible gauge for a railway designed to do useful work. 
 

His main hope was that the railway would see military use, but he was also hoping that they would be useful for estate railways of exactly the type you are describing. So I don’t think it’s implausible at all. 
 

a railway would have been a substantial investment for any estate, even if it was 15” gauge, so you’ll need to consider what traffic it might have carried (the Eaton hall railway carried fuel to the main house, but timber would also be plausible, as would output from an estate brewery etc.) but that sort of detail is half the fun :)

 

have a look for Heywood’s own railway at Duffield bank and the Eaton Hall railway, they may be of some use :)

[scalerailmodelling]

20 minutes ago, Edge said:

One of the principal movers in the 15” world was Arthur Heywood - he experimented with multiple minimum gauge railways and settled upon 15” as the narrowest possible gauge for a railway designed to do useful work. 
 

His main hope was that the railway would see military use, but he was also hoping that they would be useful for estate railways of exactly the type you are describing. So I don’t think it’s implausible at all. 
 

a railway would have been a substantial investment for any estate, even if it was 15” gauge, so you’ll need to consider what traffic it might have carried (the Eaton hall railway carried fuel to the main house, but timber would also be plausible, as would output from an estate brewery etc.) but that sort of detail is half the fun :)

 

have a look for Heywood’s own railway at Duffield bank and the Eaton Hall railway, they may be of some use :)

Thanks I will take a look

[scalerailmodelling]

55 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

There have been a few nominal 16” gauge industrial lines, although whether or not some of them might really have begun as 400mm I’m not sure, the difference being immaterial in the rough and tumble circumstances they were used in. One was the very picturesque (well, some of it) Napton on the Hill brickworks clay pit tramway, which was hand and cable worked, but outside of minng and tunnelling I don’t know of any locomotive worked ones. 
 

There were, I think, 15”, and even 14”, gauge ones in lead mines, but again not locomotive worked.

 

I dabbled in 18” gauge inspired things c25-30 years ago and having built a point (just one!) to 10.5mm gauge and similarly with some RCL wagons, I wimped out and moved to using 9mm gauge. 10.5mm is, of course, popular in the US for 3ft gauge in H0, but it isn’t an easy gauge to adopt in the UK.

 

 

Thanks I’ll have a look, I think if I can get away with making an 18” gauge railway out of 09 body and kato chassis I’ll try that

[009 micro modeller]

4 hours ago, scalerailmodelling said:

Ah ok thanks, so in effect if I use the Kato chassis with an 09 body I can call it 18” or 15” in the same way 009 can be 2ft or 2ft 6? Or as you say standard gauge in 00 instead of P4?
 

Thanks again really helpful 

 

Tim

 

Yes, and in some ways it works out better than 2’ and 2’ 6” in 009 as there is probably less difference in the size of typical stock than in that example.

 

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I dabbled in 18” gauge inspired things c25-30 years ago and having built a point (just one!) to 10.5mm gauge and similarly with some RCL wagons, I wimped out and moved to using 9mm gauge. 10.5mm is, of course, popular in the US for 3ft gauge in H0, but it isn’t an easy gauge to adopt in the UK.

010.5 probably has a lot of the difficulties associated with 014 in this context, and without enjoying the same level of support from kit manufacturers etc. I don’t know if anyone has actually used H0n3 stuff in 7mm scale in this way to build a whole layout though.

 

2 hours ago, Edge said:

One of the principal movers in the 15” world was Arthur Heywood - he experimented with multiple minimum gauge railways and settled upon 15” as the narrowest possible gauge for a railway designed to do useful work. 
 

His main hope was that the railway would see military use, but he was also hoping that they would be useful for estate railways of exactly the type you are describing. So I don’t think it’s implausible at all. 
 

a railway would have been a substantial investment for any estate, even if it was 15” gauge, so you’ll need to consider what traffic it might have carried (the Eaton hall railway carried fuel to the main house, but timber would also be plausible, as would output from an estate brewery etc.) but that sort of detail is half the fun :)

 

have a look for Heywood’s own railway at Duffield bank and the Eaton Hall railway, they may be of some use :)

A small brickworks (as suggested in the original post) might actually be a plausible industry on a larger country estate and could be served by a branch of the estate railway. I’m not sure if any of them actually served brickworks but it’s not too much of a leap from forestry and small quarries etc.

 

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

There have been a few nominal 16” gauge industrial lines, although whether or not some of them might really have begun as 400mm I’m not sure, the difference being immaterial in the rough and tumble circumstances they were used in. One was the very picturesque (well, some of it) Napton on the Hill brickworks clay pit tramway, which was hand and cable worked, but outside of minng and tunnelling I don’t know of any locomotive worked ones. 

I’d forgotten about Napton - an interesting location and including an impressive incline at one stage as well, with the clay tubs riding up and down on special incline trollies (a bit like the Vivian incline in Llanberis on a much smaller scale). Edit: see here - not sure if 16” is used for the incline trollies though or if they are a slightly wider gauge: https://www.ourwarwickshire.org.uk/content/catalogue_wow/napton-on-the-hill-trucks-of-clay-at-the-tile-kilns

 

Not sure why it was 16”, but in the absence of standardised equipment it may have been an equal choice between that and 18” or 20”. Didn’t a lot of equipment from the Napton system get reused at a farm nearby after closure?

Edited December 1, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[scalerailmodelling]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Yes, and in some ways it works out better than 2’ and 2’ 6” in 009 as there is probably less difference in the size of typical stock than in that example.

 

010.5 probably has a lot of the difficulties associated with 014 in this context, and without enjoying the same level of support from kit manufacturers etc. I don’t know if anyone has actually used H0n3 stuff in 7mm scale in this way to build a whole layout though.

 

A small brickworks (as suggested in the original post) might actually be a plausible industry on a larger country estate and could be served by a branch of the estate railway. I’m not sure if any of them actually served brickworks but it’s not too much of a leap from forestry and small quarries etc.

 

I’d forgotten about Napton - an interesting location and including an impressive incline at one stage as well, with the clay tubs riding up and down on special incline trollies (a bit like the Vivian incline in Llanberis on a much smaller scale). Edit: see here - not sure if 16” is used for the incline trollies though or if they are a slightly wider gauge: https://www.ourwarwickshire.org.uk/content/catalogue_wow/napton-on-the-hill-trucks-of-clay-at-the-tile-kilns

 

Not sure why it was 16”, but in the absence of standardised equipment it may have been an equal choice between that and 18” or 20”. Didn’t a lot of equipment from the Napton system get reused at a farm nearby after closure?

Thanks for the really comprehensive response, in addition, I have found this

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Hutton_Light_Railway
 

and it turns out this light railway did serve a brickworks and before that there was a 15” gauge railway! 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Hutton_Miniature_Railway
 

hopefully the links work but if not its the Sand Hutton Light Railway 

 

Thanks for all the responses!

 

Tim

 

[Nearholmer]

Is the Gnatterbox still going? Although Gn15 focused, rather than 0n9, it was the major on-line collation of very narrow gauge railway information.

 

7 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Didn’t a lot of equipment from the Napton system get reused at a farm nearby after closure?

In theory, yes, in practice “sort of”. I went to have a look, and it was more a small-holding or very large garden than a farm, and it was quite evident that the entire project had outstripped the owner’s age/energy/enthusiasm, so it was very overgrown indeed when I saw it, in fact I couldn’t quite tell whether the land had really ever been cleared and cultivated, or whether the plan had been abandoned at a formative stage. The guy had a fair bit of track laid out, maybe half a dozen tubs, a couple refurbished but the others largely rotting away. It was all a bit sad really.

 

The part of the country that I know best in terms of former industrial lines is Sussex, and there there were a couple of nominal 16” lines that might sow the seeds of ideas for models: one owned by a firm of poultry breeders, so serving a load of chicken runs and hen-houses; and, one serving a large nursery, so greenhouses and vegetable/flower beds. Both were hand-worked, and I strongly suspect that they were really 400mm gauge, using Decauville or similar ‘catalogue’ equipment.

 

A poultry farm would make for quite an unusual layout I reckon, and at least one (Bolton Model Poultry Farms) had an 18” gauge locomotive-worked system (Bagnall Sipat Class loco), while rail-served nurseries were once fairly common, and the ex-BR one at Poppleton has latterly been locomotive-worked (I’m never sure whether it actually was “back in the day”).

 

PS: click on this to scroll through a half dozen old, badly scanned photos of relevant things.

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Nearholmer

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Is the Gnatterbox still going? Although Gn15 focused, rather than 0n9, it was the major on-line collation of very narrow gauge railway information.

I was going to suggest that but think it’s gone - it’s where I originally read about the later use of the Napton equipment.

 

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

In theory, yes, in practice “sort of”. I went to have a look, and it was more a small-holding or very large garden than a farm, and it was quite evident that the entire project had outstripped the owner’s age/energy/enthusiasm, so it was very overgrown indeed when I saw it, in fact I couldn’t quite tell whether the land had really ever been cleared and cultivated, or whether the plan had been abandoned at a formative stage. The guy had a fair bit of track laid out, maybe half a dozen tubs, a couple refurbished but the others largely rotting away. It was all a bit sad really.

Did any of it get preserved? Unless it’s all still there. The photos look very interesting.

 

6 hours ago, scalerailmodelling said:

Thanks for the really comprehensive response, in addition, I have found this

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Hutton_Light_Railway
 

and it turns out this light railway did serve a brickworks and before that there was a 15” gauge railway! 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Hutton_Miniature_Railway
 

hopefully the links work but if not its the Sand Hutton Light Railway 

 

Thanks for all the responses!

 

Tim

 

I thought about Sand Hutton but wasn’t sure it was what you wanted as the more ‘serious’ industrial use took place after conversion to 18” gauge (to accommodate the locos that came second hand from Deptford).

 

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

A poultry farm would make for quite an unusual layout I reckon, and at least one (Bolton Model Poultry Farms) had an 18” gauge locomotive-worked system (Bagnall Sipat Class loco), while rail-served nurseries were once fairly common, and the ex-BR one at Poppleton has latterly been locomotive-worked (I’m never sure whether it actually was “back in the day”).

There was also Shillingstone Light Railway, which was even smaller at 10 1/4” gauge (although perhaps that’s stretching the idea of an estate railway slightly). However, I’m not sure if an agricultural railway is quite what @scalerailmodelling is after with this.

[Nearholmer]

Here are some photos of photos, so poor quality, of some of my former 0n10.5/0n9 bits and pieces. The loco in the first one is the late-surviving  Sylvasprings Watercress 18” one, but I can’t for the life of my remember what I based the bottom one on,  something French on 500mm, I think.

 

 

[Mike Bellamy]

 

You should investigate the John Knowles company of Woodville, South Derbyshire who had an 18" line serving their clay pipe factory. Hunslet loco "Jack" is preserved at Statfold and sister "Gwen" is over in USA. This book tells you all you need to know about the company and their railways. Don't pay silly Ebay prices (I saw one at £83 !!) as it is available new from the Industrial Railway Society. 

 

https://irsshop.co.uk/Tramways-Railways-of-John-Knowles

 

Where are you as the 7mm Narrow Gauge Assn has a modelling day at Mickleover (Derby) in January where there are going to be 2 or 3 O-9 layouts and the Assn's main exhibition is at Burton in June - and only a few miles from the John Knowles site - but it's all under a housing estate now !

.

[scalerailmodelling]

Thanks again for all the replies, it’s certainly given me food for thought.

I have always loved narrow gauge and model in 009 already, but when I saw 09 I was intrigued, I am umming and arring over what to do either a more modern (early 90s) 009 or something in 09.

 

I will definitely look up the resources that have been shared and even if this time I stick with 009, I know the 09 is an option for me with RTR items.

 

Thats another fine mess I’ve got my bank balance in to! 
 

Cheers

 

Tim

Edited December 1, 2023 by scalerailmodelling

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, scalerailmodelling said:

Thanks again for all the replies, it’s certainly given me food for thought.

I have always loved narrow gauge and model in 009 already, but when I saw 09 I was intrigued, I am umming and arring over what to do either a more modern (early 90s) 009 or something in 09.

 

I will definitely look up the resources that have been shared and even if this time I stick with 009, I know the 09 is an option for me with RTR items.

 

Thats another fine mess I’ve got my bank balance in to! 
 

Cheers

 

Tim

My main scale is 009 as well and I’ve similarly been tempted by 09 (and bought a few wagon kits), having previously dabbled in other larger scales. I did also vaguely consider 6mm or 1:50 scale on 9mm gauge for a project a few years ago but obviously that doesn’t have the same level of commercial support.

 

When you say early 90s 009, do you mean preservation or modern industrial?

[Alex TM]

Hi Tim,

 

Try dropping a PM to @backwaterscotland . Andy has a 'bit of a thing' about 15" gauge and similar lines; he's also fairly knowledgable about resources, etc.

 

He hasn't logged in or posted in quite some time however a PM may give him a nudge ...

 

Hope it gets you some useful info/insights.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Nearholmer]

A few more scale-gauge combinations to put into the melting pot if you enjoy making your own rolling stock for very narrow gauges:

 

- 1:48, 9mm gauge, representing 18”. There are a fair few potentially useful, de-militarisable, things in the Tamiya 1:48 range, and of course oodles and of (expensive to import these days) items aimed at the US 0 gauge market. The old Jouef Decauville skips work well at this scale.

 

- 1:35, 16.5mm gauge, representing 600mm. Absolutely loads of potentially useful things, including civilian figures, from military kit makers. The skip wagon that Peco make (or did make?) was much better for this or 1:32 than any other scale.

 

- 1:32, 16.5mm gauge, representing 20”/500mm. Vast amounts of agricultural stuff at this scale, more tractors than you can shake a stick at, plus figures. I think Scalelink may still sell WDLR kits at this scale, using it to represent 600mm/2ft.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Nearholmer

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

1:48, 9mm gauge, representing 18”. There are a fair few potentially useful, de-militarisable, things in the Tamiya 1:48 range, and of course oodles and of (expensive to import these days) items aimed at the US 0 gauge market. The old Jouef Decauville skips work well at this scale.

This of course, being US 0 scale, is also the scale for 0n18 (American 09). So there might be a few bits and pieces from there that are specifically for 18” gauge, rather in the way that H0n30 and H0e stuff can be used in 009. I think there was a battery loco from Grandt Line or someone similar that looked OK as a British prototype as well.

 

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

1:32, 16.5mm gauge, representing 20”/500mm. Vast amounts of agricultural stuff at this scale, more tractors than you can shake a stick at, plus figures. I think Scalelink may still sell WDLR kits at this scale, using it to represent 600mm/2ft.

I haven’t built a layout in this scale but have built (well actually it’s still being finished off) a coach: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/140194-miniaturepark-railway-coach-1n20-ish/

 

It was really just an attempt to make something out of a rather obscure and random purchase from many years ago, but it has helped me get to grips with this scale for future reference. In particular I like the way that you can use real wooden planks, and individual bolt heads etc. made from Plastruct (obviously this also works in 1:12 and similar scales but they’re probably a bit too large for something like this).

 

I also had a little go in 1:32 with a cheap plastic train set around 12mm gauge, representing 15”, but you could do this in a more in-depth way with ‘proper’ TT and H0m stuff as a base, though it’s a lot more obscure/unusual than 09 and represents the same gauge. At some point I quite fancy doing 1:32 (or 10mm/ft) on 9mm gauge as a 10 1/4” (ish) gauge line (I nearly did once for a diorama competition, but wasn’t able to visit the prototype location for the planned diorama so switched to a different idea).

 

Interestingly, in 1:35, 16.5mm is almost spot on for the Penrhyn/Dinorwic 1’ 10 3/4” gauge…

 

[roythebus1]

I'd suggest that with 15" gauge most railways of that size were't all that accurate with tracklaying , maybe with a tolerance of 1" either way.

 

As for using 9mm chassis, is it possible just to pull the wheels out to the gauge you want as long as you put spacer washers behind them, just like EM modellers do with 00 stock.

[009 micro modeller]

9 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

As for using 9mm chassis, is it possible just to pull the wheels out to the gauge you want as long as you put spacer washers behind them, just like EM modellers do with 00 stock.

Not sure how well that would work for a Kato chassis although I can’t remember the specifics. It may have been attempted by someone for 00n3 etc.

[russ p]

This started as 15in line then changed to 18in

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Hutton_Light_Railway

[scalerailmodelling]

On 01/12/2023 at 20:11, 009 micro modeller said:

My main scale is 009 as well and I’ve similarly been tempted by 09 (and bought a few wagon kits), having previously dabbled in other larger scales. I did also vaguely consider 6mm or 1:50 scale on 9mm gauge for a project a few years ago but obviously that doesn’t have the same level of commercial support.

 

When you say early 90s 009, do you mean preservation or modern industrial?

Thanks, I was thinking something modern industrial like the Brickworks at Cherry Orchard Lane, I believe they operated their 2ft gauge line until 1995

[scalerailmodelling]

11 hours ago, russ p said:

This started as 15in line then changed to 18in

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Hutton_Light_Railway

Thanks, yeah I have considered this one, its part of my research list 🤣