Why is modern UK passenger rail so poorly represented in RTR?

[Geep7]

1 hour ago, C126 said:

 

I forget how long it takes him, but I am beginning to think the only way I will see a OO 4-CIG on my layout before I am quite gaga is by paying Danny Havlik for one of him exquisite models.  Alas, approx. £800, I think (but worth it with the time and effort).  Seen at D.E.M.U. SHowcase 2023.

 

Would a crowd-funded production-line bulk-purchase persuade him to reduce the cost?

 

I have a Southern Pride Blue & Grey 4-Cig Kit and a set of MJT sides, plus the Replica coach bodies to do another 4-Cig (most likely a phase 1 in Green). However the motivation to make them at the moment is tempered by the fact I don't have a layout large enough to run them on. My previous 4mm layout, West Sands, could run up to  6-car MU sets, but the whole layout was nearly 18 feet in length (16ft6 long with the fiddle yard on a curve), built in the master bedroom (yes, you read that right. My wife is generally very understanding and supportive of my hobby). However, I came to the realisation that it was just way too big for my home, so it's been dismantled.

 

So, back on topic. My young nephew is very much into the more modern scene, liking IET's, HSTs (In GWR livery), Class 66's etc. For him to have any chance of modelling that, he's gone for N gauge, having one of the simply superb Kato Class 800's. My father and I originally built him a roundy-roundy on a 4x2 board, but recently we have started building a Cornish modern era branch terminus, inspired by Newquay, in a little over 9ft x 1ft. For the longer length stock that now seems to be the norm, N gauge seems to be much more suitable. I certainly wouldn't be contemplating modelling the modern era in 4mm. There i'm happy modelling the late 60's/early 70's, with short 2 coach MU's, and 4-wheeled (mostly) freight stock. Even most of the loco's are shorter, Class 33, 73 are only about 8" in length, with my longest loco, a Western, being the only one almost a foot in length.

[Reorte]

Length's an interesting issue, and I think there are both significant time and place differences. The longest trains now are much longer, but there are also locations where you're unlikely to see much more than a 4 car DMU, which might've had much longer trains in the past.

 

Freights are almost certainly going to be longer now, but somehow it seems (to me at least) easier to get away with a shorter-than-it-should-be freight.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

Freights are almost certainly going to be longer now, but somehow it seems (to me at least) easier to get away with a shorter-than-it-should-be freight.

I think it’s whether the prototypes are fixed formation or not. So freight stock can be shunted into trains of any length and that looks OK. It works for some loco-hauled passenger trains, although not so much for things like Intercity 225s that are generally fixed-formation (although the class 91s themselves can be swapped around). For something like a class 700 the units can be no shorter than 8 carriages (and a lot are 12), so if you wanted to model a 4-car unit to save space it’s effectively a fictitious sub-class. Sticking with the GN suburban lines, 717s have a similar problem as they are fixed 6-car sets. The units they replaced (313s) were better, being 3-car sets, although almost always running in pairs. The previous 365s and 317s, and the 387s that still run to Cambridge and King’s Lynn, were all 4-car sets and especially at the outer ends of the suburban network (or on weekends, which I’ve personally seen) it’s perhaps more plausible for them to run on their own rather than in pairs. While they no longer represent the ‘current scene,’ I think a 313 could be a good RTR subject because of how ubiquitous they were at one time, but a more useful privatisation-era livery might be Silverlink, which then opens up modelling places like Croxley Green (assuming any 313s were actually repainted before it closed), the St Albans Abbey branch and odd corners of the North London line, all of which they did run singly to to form 3-coach trains (or even I think 2, with missing centre car, in the case of Croxley Green, though that was before privatisation), and which take up less space in model form than the ECML.

[Jim Martin]

On 03/12/2023 at 12:49, Steamport Southport said:

 

Might be worth considering that those Merseyrail Class 777s are only just appearing in service, certainly none were running when that poll was conducted. I travel on Merseyrail at least once a week and have only been on them twice!

I'm sitting on one right now, on a Southport to Hunts Cross train. By no means the first time I've ridden on one, but the first time I've even seen one in service on the Southport line. I rode home from work yesterday and it was a 507.

 

I don't know if this marks the launch on the Southport line (not before time, since the 507/8s are pretty much clapped out, not to mention that Merseyrail seem to have given up on cleaning them altogether) or if this is another test; but here it is.

 

Jim

[Jim Martin]

On 12/12/2023 at 10:16, Jim Martin said:

I'm sitting on one right now, on a Southport to Hunts Cross train. By no means the first time I've ridden on one, but the first time I've even seen one in service on the Southport line. I rode home from work yesterday and it was a 507.

 

I don't know if this marks the launch on the Southport line (not before time, since the 507/8s are pretty much clapped out, not to mention that Merseyrail seem to have given up on cleaning them altogether) or if this is another test; but here it is.

 

Jim

Sadly,  my train home last night was a 507 (albeit cleaner than most) and this morning's commute was on another 507, this one carrying the usual livery of overall (including the windows) dirt colour.

 

So the 777 revolution on the Southport line is at best partial.

[Northmoor]

On 06/12/2023 at 08:33, PMP said:

Try the contemporary Doncaster to Lincoln relief line. Has a very good mix of daytime traffic, relatively speaking, intermodal, single  and twin car units, light engine moves, and biomass. Then there’s the ECML diverts and specials, for a contemporary twin track line there’s quite a bit of ‘interest’ with the regular traffic. That’s what I used to see from my office windows. A few years back when Cottam power station was open, through Worksop/Retford you’d see a constant stream of coal trains separated by pacers and units. There are lines with a variety of traffic if you look for them.

 

Theres no reason for people to think the livery blanks should be much cheaper. Those that do think like that aren’t the sharpest tools in the box, or the customer these are aimed at. The blanks are aimed at people with the desire to do their own thing. The North American market products are about £10-£15 cheaper than the livery models, the market accepts them without an issue. The ‘normal’ livery product will still be there, all the NA manufacturers do is build a batch with unpainted shells/interior, that retail concurrently with (identical) painted products. There’s no massive cost saving to the manufacturers, they still have to assemble the core components/vehicle, and pack them, which the customer pays for, hence they aren’t significantly cheaper.

 

I’ve no idea how many models get sent to Hornby because the owners faulty application of accessories, presumably you know, what volume is it? They may do a few to help out, but a faulty application of accessories is down to the end user, not the manufacturers. If they despatch a serviceable toy (model), how the customer treats it subsequently is down to them.

Sorry I should have replied to this earlier.

 

First, I wasn't aware of just how busy the old Joint Line is now, but I would still argue it is (a) quieter than layouts representing that type of line usually are, and (b) a lot of what you describe are the exception (e.g. diversions) not the norm.  However, it's a fair example and I do remember Worksop; in the early 90s, my "office" overlooked the West Yard.....!

 

Where I mentioned returns, I should have said to Hornby and shops, as they frequently have to deal with the repairs.  Hornby often have to repair more major damage to mechanisms.  The issue has often been mentioned on various RMWeb threads, while a look at the secondhand listings of some of the bigger retailers will show you just how much clumsy damage can be done by the buying public.

[PMP]

On 16/12/2023 at 17:41, Northmoor said:

Sorry I should have replied to this earlier.

 

First, I wasn't aware of just how busy the old Joint Line is now, but I would still argue it is (a) quieter than layouts representing that type of line usually are, and (b) a lot of what you describe are the exception (e.g. diversions) not the norm. 

 

a) Is irrelevant unless there’s a rule that whatever anyone models has to replicate the prototype service levels. People model one engine in steam branch line termini, does this mean they can’t run more than one train a day/week?

 

b) You’re wrong. A lot of what I’ve described is the normal bread and butter traffic, with something like fifty scheduled moves a day through the section, Finningley, I’m most familiar with. Intermodals, regional passenger, light engine/s all commonplace. The unusual stuff on the line is steam specials and the ECML diversions. However, the ECML diversions were actually quite common over the past 16 years, every day on shift that I observed the line.

 

So for someone wanting to make a contemporary era twin track layout with a good cross section of varied traffic, the relief line would be a realistic prototype to select.

https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/gnge

[phil-b259]

On 12/12/2023 at 10:16, Jim Martin said:

not to mention that Merseyrail seem to have given up on cleaning them altogether) or if this is another test; but here it is.

 

 

Exteriors or interiors?

 

I ask because contrary to what some may think carriage washing machines have got significantly more advanced these days and its quite possible that the depot modifications to make them suit the new rolling stock might also make them incompatible with the old!

 

That means the only way of cleaning the outside is via a labour intensive manual process (assuming you have the spare staff) with a hosepipe and brush (not the easiest thing to arrange if your yard is full of 3rd rail either) 

 

 

[Jim Martin]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Exteriors or interiors?

 

I ask because contrary to what some may think carriage washing machines have got significantly more advanced these days and its quite possible that the depot modifications to make them suit the new rolling stock might also make them incompatible with the old!

 

That means the only way of cleaning the outside is via a labour intensive manual process (assuming you have the spare staff) with a hosepipe and brush (not the easiest thing to arrange if your yard is full of 3rd rail either) 

 

 

Interesting point. I meant externally: the insides are pretty much as they ever have been. You wouldn't want to eat your dinner off them, but they're acceptable. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if you were right about the carriage cleaners. Merseyrail has been gearing up for the 777s for what feels like forever, so it's quite possible that the infrastructure has been modified to suit them (apart from obvious infrastructure changes, like all the work on station platforms that's been done over the last few years).

[Bittern]

On 04/12/2023 at 00:43, C126 said:

I appreciate the economic arguments described above, but how can manufacturers get youngsters interested in the hobby, if they can not buy what they see when they travel by train, or just peer over the fence?  Or do young people gain an interest in other ways?  I assume rail travel is declining in this demographic group.  Are they inspired by visiting preservation venues?  I am curious about how the youth start hobbies that do not involve staring at a mobile-phone.

While I’m not exactly young any more, I’m a bit closer than many. For most young people getting into hobbies (involving a screen or not) the most common way seems to be associating with people who are already involved and wanting to have a go themselves, or recruitment at places like student club stands at university orientation. 
 

even when I was a teenager though none of the few other young people I knew who were into model trains had much interest in modelling the current scene: one had essentially an eclectic train set of “I like it and I can afford it”, the others were focused on pre-nationalisation steam, the 1960s, and pre-Amtrak American diesels 

 

On 04/12/2023 at 02:13, Dungrange said:

Manufacturers don't have any duty to get youngsters into the hobby.  Their raison d'etre is simply to make money for their shareholders. 

 

 

true, though if they are concerned about their long-term viability recruiting new customers is important. For UK-based modellers  Peco and Bachman can be fairly certain of getting some custom regardless of their chosen prototype (Hornby also to a lesser extent). Hornby seem to be getting most of the attention (deservedly or not, I simply don’t know) for trying to expand the market, though some of their attempts seem wildly misjudged. 

 

On 04/12/2023 at 02:13, Dungrange said:

Even within the adults that frequent RMweb, there are people who seem to want one of each class, rather than have multiple near identical locomotives and I've seen the same at exhibitions, where DMUs are clearly under-represented - not because they aren't made, but because a lot of people seem to subscribe to a one of each philosophy.

I think that’s partly explained by people being willing to imagine that each train is every identical train, so you only need as many of each type (class, operator, etc. combination) as you want on-scene at once. After all, without checking the fiddle yard, how long would it take you to notice if someone did have a complete set of the different 387s used on a particular line on a day?  

[Dungrange]

2 minutes ago, Bittern said:

I think that’s partly explained by people being willing to imagine that each train is every identical train, so you only need as many of each type (class, operator, etc. combination) as you want on-scene at once. After all, without checking the fiddle yard, how long would it take you to notice if someone did have a complete set of the different 387s used on a particular line on a day?  

 

Whilst that makes some sense in the context of a small station, I was primarily thinking of the models of largish stations with maybe 6 platforms, yet there often just seems to be one DMU that circulates in just one direction (with no return working).  It's not that the fiddle yard isn't full - it's just that there are more rail tours and freight trains than what I'd call 'bread and butter' unit services.  In many ways I suppose it's no different to the market for named locomotives and celebrity liveries being favoured over owning multiple plain old BR blue or EWS liveried locomotives. 

[Bittern]

3 hours ago, Dungrange said:

Whilst that makes some sense in the context of a small station, I was primarily thinking of the models of largish stations with maybe 6 platforms, yet there often just seems to be one DMU that circulates in just one direction (with no return working).

True that. The part that makes it a bit odd is that unless there’s a freight terminal those units are probably the only trains that do anything but appear, maybe stop, and disappear, because they can split or join units, terminate and reverse or move to stabling sidings, etc.

 

something I discovered quite quickly from my first train set (which I named my account after) was that while through express trains are  nice to look at (even if trimmed to 3 coaches, from the right perspective) they don’t offer much play value on their own. 

 

3 hours ago, Dungrange said:

In many ways I suppose it's no different to the market for named locomotives and celebrity liveries being favoured over owning multiple plain old BR blue or EWS liveried locomotives. 

The manufacturers must love GBRf.

[CKPR]

Although I'm primailrily interested in the late pre-grouping and early 1970s eras, I am wondering if there is any cross-over with some other discussions going on on RMWeb, particularly those about the disappearance of old school operational layouts that were much more popular from the 1940s through to the late 1960s. By this, I mean layouts with several stations, all properly signalled and with the primary emphasis on realistic operation. It strikes me that this type of railway modelling, which has all but disappeared with the dominance of finescale accuracy, might be the answer to the lack of variety in modern rolling stock. 

Edited March 8 by CKPR

[eldomtom2]

17 hours ago, CKPR said:

Although I'm primailrily interested in the late pre-grouping and early 1970s eras, I am wondering if there is any cross-over with some other discussions going on on RMWeb, particularly those about the disappearance of old school operational layouts that were much more popular from the 1940s through to the late 1960s. By this, I mean layouts with several stations, all properly signalled and with the primary emphasis on realistic operation. It strikes me that this type of railway modelling, which has all but disappeared with the dominance of finescale accuracy, might be the answer to the lack of variety in modern rolling stock. 

The modern railway is certainly more suited to such a style of layout than the steam era one, since it can be realistically operated by a single signaller.