mid to late 1970s WR questions

[MJI]

This wa the period before I started properly watching them.

 

1976 1977 Normal passenger trains from Gloucestershire to South West, what would have been the most likely locos. All I can remember are DMUs on Falmouth branch, I am 99% sure are 118s

 

1977 Golden Valley line to Swindon, mark 2B or 2C carriages, would it have been a 50?

 

Trying to get years for some 60s trips now. But I remember seeing a Warship on a B+G Maroon mix.

[The Johnster]

Gloucestershire-South West (also S. Wales); 46 or 47.  Probable loco change at Bristol, to above classes plus 52s or 50s.  Mix mk1/2 stock
 

Falmouth almost certainly 118. 
 

Golden Valley line 47s, 52s, dmus 119, 120, & 101.  Occasional 117.  
 

Following the closure of Eastgate, locos were changed top’n’tail at Central on X-country services, except for S.Wales.  Gloucester-Newport stopper dmus as Golden Valley.  Gloucester Warships in 70s mostly freight. Hymeks, 25s, and 31s on parcels. 
 

 

[MJI]

So my holiday loco was 46 or 47 makes sense.

 

The Swindon train then 47 50 or 52.

 

Still most likely 50 as i am 80% sure it sounded like one.

 

Was not long before i got properly interested.

 

Found out Warship at Eastgate was 1965 or 1966.

 

Other trip not remembered

[EddieK]

Taking a random date of 1st March 1976, the Laira DMU allocation comprised Classes 116, 118, 119 120 and 121..

 

By August 1977, the 116s had all gone, there were more 118s, most but not all of the 119s had gone, to be replaced by more Class 120, and the Class 121s remained.

 

A search on the "Image" menu on the railcar website for Falmouth, found, in 1976 - 77, Classes 118, 119, 120 and 121 on the branch at different times.

[The Johnster]

TTBOMK Laira’s 120s were all of the later 1961 batch with 4-character headcode boxes.  These were paradoxically the dirst sets withdrawn, and IIRC never left the WR. 

Edited December 12, 2023 by The Johnster

[MJI]

Thing is I do know that one train and this is before spotting was 118 and 121.

 

Am I the only person trying to reconcile early memories?

[Halvarras]

Derby Class 116 W50848/59356/50901 in blue small yellow livery waits at Truro to return to Falmouth on 4th June 1968 (one of my very first railway photos and it shows! - this camera was very cheap, I was so disappointed with it that I only ever put one film in it and asked 'Santa' for a Kodak Instamatic six months later - he duly obliged! D6315 + D6307 on 2-coach schoolchildren's train to points west stored in down siding beyond, almost certainly with their end gangways connected - such assets sitting idle most of the day was a regular occurrence back then - sometimes even tying up a Warship!)

 

W55016 + W50666/59357/50712 having passed Penwithers Junction in the distance (overlooked by New County Hall) head for Falmouth on 26th August 1974. This Class 120 pair had not long arrived in the area and made a change from the usual centre-headcode sets. W59357 belonged to W51128/51141, a Class 116 which hung around the far west much longer than other 116s which came and went. The power cars tended to run around as a pair and only occasionally collected their centre car, which became somewhat nomadic as a result, as seen here. I once saw it marshalled behind D846 'Steadfast' in an up parcels train!

I think my interest in the real railway pretty much started on this bridge - if you looked to the left you could see the Cornish main line curving around the opposite hillside):

 

Three views of W51590/59582/51576 + W55026 at Penryn and Falmouth Docks on 21st June 1977. This Class 120 set had managed to survive into 1969 still in green livery when all of the others were in blue small yellow or blue/grey (in fact I think at least one all-blue set had been repainted into blue/grey before this set even lost its green livery!) Like the Class 116 mentioned above other Class 121 bubble cars came and went but W55026 just couldn't stay away - over 12 years earlier it had worked the last day's services on the Lostwithiel - Fowey branch, had moved on at least twice in that time but kept coming back! It must have liked it in Cornwall (so did W55016 above which I don't think ever left the area). The wall topped by a fence in the second view once supported the headshunt for Penryn goods yard:

 

Mention of the Golden Valley line prompts me to add this shot - on 9th August 1975 and being aware of the impending closure of Gloucester Eastgate station I travelled up from Swindon to take some photos. Green-liveried 47267 took me there, passing 46023 on a parcels working at Stroud:

[MJI]

I am just a bit too young.

 

Even weirder is my mum does not remember early train trips with me under 5

[Stoke West]

7 hours ago, Halvarras said:

Derby Class 116 W50848/59356/50901 in blue small yellow livery waits at Truro to return to Falmouth on 4th June 1968 (one of my very first railway photos and it shows! - this camera was very cheap, I was so disappointed with it that I only ever put one film in it and asked 'Santa' for a Kodak Instamatic six months later - he duly obliged! D6315 + D6307 on 2-coach schoolchildren's train to points west stored in down siding beyond, almost certainly with their end gangways connected - such assets sitting idle most of the day was a regular occurrence back then - sometimes even tying up a Warship!)

 

W55016 + W50666/59357/50712 having passed Penwithers Junction in the distance (overlooked by New County Hall) head for Falmouth on 26th August 1974. This Class 120 pair had not long arrived in the area and made a change from the usual centre-headcode sets. W59357 belonged to W51128/51141, a Class 116 which hung around the far west much longer than other 116s which came and went. The power cars tended to run around as a pair and only occasionally collected their centre car, which became somewhat nomadic as a result, as seen here. I once saw it marshalled behind D846 'Steadfast' in an up parcels train!

I think my interest in the real railway pretty much started on this bridge - if you looked to the left you could see the Cornish main line curving around the opposite hillside):

 

Three views of W51590/59582/51576 + W55026 at Penryn and Falmouth Docks on 21st June 1977. This Class 120 set had managed to survive into 1969 still in green livery when all of the others were in blue small yellow or blue/grey (in fact I think at least one all-blue set had been repainted into blue/grey before this set even lost its green livery!) Like the Class 116 mentioned above other Class 121 bubble cars came and went but W55026 just couldn't stay away - over 12 years earlier it had worked the last day's services on the Lostwithiel - Fowey branch, had moved on at least twice in that time but kept coming back! It must have liked it in Cornwall (so did W55016 above which I don't think ever left the area). The wall topped by a fence in the second view once supported the headshunt for Penryn goods yard:

 

Mention of the Golden Valley line prompts me to add this shot - on 9th August 1975 and being aware of the impending closure of Gloucester Eastgate station I travelled up from Swindon to take some photos. Green-liveried 47267 took me there, passing 46023 on a parcels working at Stroud:

In your shot at Stroud the 46 is in the sidings which at this time were for engineers use only

[Halvarras]

54 minutes ago, Stoke West said:

In your shot at Stroud the 46 is in the sidings which at this time were for engineers use only

 

Interesting - it does appear to be standing on track beyond the up main. Can't see much of the vehicle behind the 46 but it might be a Diag O62 Syphon G (the sliding vent variety). I wrote 'Parcels' ('PCLS' to be exact) in  my notebook but it may not have been......not much chance of recalling more detail 48 years later, sadly........!

[Rivercider]

8 hours ago, Halvarras said:

 

Interesting - it does appear to be standing on track beyond the up main. Can't see much of the vehicle behind the 46 but it might be a Diag O62 Syphon G (the sliding vent variety). I wrote 'Parcels' ('PCLS' to be exact) in  my notebook but it may not have been......not much chance of recalling more detail 48 years later, sadly........!

I suppose if it is a Syphon then it could either be in parcels use, or on an empty news van train to Old Oak. It might also be a van heading for Swindon Works either a parcels Syphon, or one in the Enparts fleet, so part of a freight service. I remember some days in the late 1970s the mid morning Kingsland Road to Swindon freight service often contained several npccs vehicles in the formation both Enparts and vans heading for works,

 

cheers

[Michael Hodgson]

I often used to travel on the NE-SW trains in the 1960s/70s between Chepstow or Newport and Newcastle or Brum.

Long distance trains were mostly peaks, sometimes 47s, the odd Warship as far as B'ham (probably covering for failures).  On about 8 Mark 1 or 2 coaches. 

Local services to Chepstow were what we now call "Heritage" DMUs, not sure which class.

 

 

[MJI]

Had a thought last night.

 

Did 76 and 77

 

Both were all blue.

 

I had flashes of P12? wildcard usage.

 

No toilets pretty sure 116 and a  single car .

 

Did do 118 at least once

[MJI]

I started spotting properly in 1978.

 

Before i started i knew most classes of locos but not DMUs

[Stoke West]

20 hours ago, Halvarras said:

Derby Class 116 W50848/59356/50901 in blue small yellow livery waits at Truro to return to Falmouth on 4th June 1968 (one of my very first railway photos and it shows! - this camera was very cheap, I was so disappointed with it that I only ever put one film in it and asked 'Santa' for a Kodak Instamatic six months later - he duly obliged! D6315 + D6307 on 2-coach schoolchildren's train to points west stored in down siding beyond, almost certainly with their end gangways connected - such assets sitting idle most of the day was a regular occurrence back then - sometimes even tying up a Warship!)

 

W55016 + W50666/59357/50712 having passed Penwithers Junction in the distance (overlooked by New County Hall) head for Falmouth on 26th August 1974. This Class 120 pair had not long arrived in the area and made a change from the usual centre-headcode sets. W59357 belonged to W51128/51141, a Class 116 which hung around the far west much longer than other 116s which came and went. The power cars tended to run around as a pair and only occasionally collected their centre car, which became somewhat nomadic as a result, as seen here. I once saw it marshalled behind D846 'Steadfast' in an up parcels train!

I think my interest in the real railway pretty much started on this bridge - if you looked to the left you could see the Cornish main line curving around the opposite hillside):

 

Three views of W51590/59582/51576 + W55026 at Penryn and Falmouth Docks on 21st June 1977. This Class 120 set had managed to survive into 1969 still in green livery when all of the others were in blue small yellow or blue/grey (in fact I think at least one all-blue set had been repainted into blue/grey before this set even lost its green livery!) Like the Class 116 mentioned above other Class 121 bubble cars came and went but W55026 just couldn't stay away - over 12 years earlier it had worked the last day's services on the Lostwithiel - Fowey branch, had moved on at least twice in that time but kept coming back! It must have liked it in Cornwall (so did W55016 above which I don't think ever left the area). The wall topped by a fence in the second view once supported the headshunt for Penryn goods yard:

 

Mention of the Golden Valley line prompts me to add this shot - on 9th August 1975 and being aware of the impending closure of Gloucester Eastgate station I travelled up from Swindon to take some photos. Green-liveried 47267 took me there, passing 46023 on a parcels working at Stroud:

Your shot of the unit at Truro in the branch platform is a good record shot , showing what happened

[Halvarras]

19 minutes ago, Stoke West said:

Your shot of the unit at Truro in the branch platform is a good record shot , showing what happened

 

I suppose it is, back then the Falmouth branch trains used Platform 3 as up trains went via Platform 4, the other side of this one. Up parcels and perishable trains also used P3 while the branch train was away. Platform 1, the bay, was only occasionally used for stabling locos (including the odd Hymek in the autumn of 1967). The 1971 remodelling blocked off P4 at the east end, up trains then using P3. The Falmouth trains reverted to using the bay platform, as they had in steam days, as the remodelling had included a rationalisation of Penwithers Junction allowing two-way running for the branch trains on the down main for the short distance through Highertown Tunnel, a situation which still exists today.

 

The 1971 changes did away with Truro West Signal Box (and that at Penwithers Junction) and Truro East Box is expected to be taken out of use within the next 3 months, along with Truro's semaphore signals. As if losing the HSTs and CDA china clay wagons wasn't enough......☹️

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, Stoke West said:

In your shot at Stroud the 46 is in the sidings which at this time were for engineers use only

Not n 1975 they weren't as certain other things definitely went in there at that time.

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I often used to travel on the NE-SW trains in the 1960s/70s between Chepstow or Newport and Newcastle or Brum.

Long distance trains were mostly peaks, sometimes 47s, the odd Warship as far as B'ham (probably covering for failures).  On about 8 Mark 1 or 2 coaches. 

Local services to Chepstow were what we now call "Heritage" DMUs, not sure which class.

 

 

 

Newport-Gloucester dmus were 120s (mostly) or 119s, running into the down bay at Gloucester Central.  101s became more frequent during the 70s. 

 

46s and 47s on the longer distance trains; Cardiff-Leeds/Newcastle were 10-coach rakes with full restaurant, there was a Sheffield with an RMB IIRC, and a Derby which was 8 mk1s.  As you say, mk2a & bs became more frequent from around 1970 as they were cascaded from other work.  The trains were still steam-heated in the mid-70s, but all stock had Commonwealth or B4 bogies for 100mph running. 

 

There was an early morning out'n'back Cardiff-Chepstow, one of my link jobs and I used to operate the ground frame at Chepstow to cross the train from the up to the down for the return leg, lovely spot on a summer morning with the mist rising off the river!  My memory says 05.20 off Cardiff, 06 something off Chepstow. 

[Stoke West]

14 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Not n 1975 they weren't as certain other things definitely went in there at that time.

Interesting its somewhere i didn't visit very often and sidings always seemed rusty and that was the year a lot of South Wales traffic went that way with the Badminton line closed

[Stoke West]

8 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

Newport-Gloucester dmus were 120s (mostly) or 119s, running into the down bay at Gloucester Central.  101s became more frequent during the 70s. 

 

46s and 47s on the longer distance trains; Cardiff-Leeds/Newcastle were 10-coach rakes with full restaurant, there was a Sheffield with an RMB IIRC, and a Derby which was 8 mk1s.  As you say, mk2a & bs became more frequent from around 1970 as they were cascaded from other work.  The trains were still steam-heated in the mid-70s, but all stock had Commonwealth or B4 bogies for 100mph running. 

 

There was an early morning out'n'back Cardiff-Chepstow, one of my link jobs and I used to operate the ground frame at Chepstow to cross the train from the up to the down for the return leg, lovely spot on a summer morning with the mist rising off the river!  My memory says 05.20 off Cardiff, 06 something off Chepstow. 

Canton had some intercity units about 76/77 that worked it along with the North and West and then single units on a Newport to Gloucester shuttle

[The Johnster]

The 123 4-car Inter-City units were used new from Canton in 1962-6 on Derby (and Portsmouth) services as well; of course these had Buffets, usually ran as two 4-car sets.  Had a cab ride up the Lickey in one in '63, I was 11, on the way to a family visit of Aunty Nora in Tamworth.  Derby men relieved the train at Gloucester.

 

They were drafted in to the North to West, autumn 76 IIRC, as another in the long-running series of attempts to improve timekeeping after the cessation of loco-hauled services (diverted to run via BNS) in 1969.  The initial Cardiff-Crewe services were 120s, which could not time the trains in anything other than the best circumstances. These were stengthened in 1970 IIRC with bubble cars, locked out of use but much frequented by traincrews travelling on the line (we had carriage keys, mwa ha ha ha...); the arrangements of seating benches to form beds, sofas, card school tables, or dining tables were, um, interesting...  The Inter-Cities, reduced to 3-car sets for better accelleration on London-Oxford commuter trains and now without the Buffets, were geared for 75mpm running as opposed to the 120/121 combos' 70mph, but the higher gearing made them weaker on the banks (and if there's one thing the North & West has in spades, it's banks); no improvement. 

 

The next stage was that sum fule thought that a 25 could time 6 mk1s on the route, which came down to 5, 4, and eventually 3 before there was a degree of success; presumably this was the same fule that thought 25s or 31s could replace Hymeks.  These were eventually replaced with 4-coach electrically-heated mk1s hauled by 33 in the 80s, and the 33s, lively little things, were the answer until airco stock appered in the 90s with 37/4s, which could also manage fairly well.  Except for 420 Cwmbran, which was a bit weak and had a persistent cough; could blow smoke rings out the exhaust.

Edited December 17, 2023 by The Johnster

[Halvarras]

It doesn't appear to be well-known (I certainly had no idea until I saw a close-up cab photo in a book some years ago) that when new what became the Class 123 Inter-City DMU sets had regular diagrams from Cardiff to Penzance (much like the 'Castle' HSTs until last week) - a photo of one of these units passing Dawlish Warren with headcode 1C41 in my first Ian Allan combo (1967 edition) always intrigued me, but for all I knew it went to Paignton, or at least no further than Plymouth. Not so it seems. I believe that a member of the Cornwall Railway Society has claimed that he saw every vehicle of this type in the Penzance area at the time - 1963-4. This superb photo of a unit entering Truro came my way but I don't know its origin so if there's an issue with copyright I will of course remove it - 'twould be a pity though:

I had relatives living on the Malabar Estate visible beyond but my railway affliction set in around three years later so I paid no attention to scenes like these on family visits - alas!

 

I used to see the 123s from time to time in the 1970s but only took this one photo, of unit C708 (W52088/59819/52099) at Swindon on 27th November 1976 - it was departing the station so I'm trying to figure out where all the ground-level exhaust was coming from......:

[keefer]

Maybe just a blown exhaust pipe or loose joint under the coach.

Probably not very pleasant on board, as it would be easy for the fumes to end up inside.

[The Stationmaster]

23 hours ago, Halvarras said:

It doesn't appear to be well-known (I certainly had no idea until I saw a close-up cab photo in a book some years ago) that when new what became the Class 123 Inter-City DMU sets had regular diagrams from Cardiff to Penzance (much like the 'Castle' HSTs until last week) - a photo of one of these units passing Dawlish Warren with headcode 1C41 in my first Ian Allan combo (1967 edition) always intrigued me, but for all I knew it went to Paignton, or at least no further than Plymouth. Not so it seems. I believe that a member of the Cornwall Railway Society has claimed that he saw every vehicle of this type in the Penzance area at the time - 1963-4. This superb photo of a unit entering Truro came my way but I don't know its origin so if there's an issue with copyright I will of course remove it - 'twould be a pity though:

I had relatives living on the Malabar Estate visible beyond but my railway affliction set in around three years later so I paid no attention to scenes like these on family visits - alas!

 

I used to see the 123s from time to time in the 1970s but only took this one photo, of unit C708 (W52088/59819/52099) at Swindon on 27th November 1976 - it was departing the station so I'm trying to figure out where all the ground-level exhaust was coming from......:

That smoke ias most likely from a heater unit.  These were lovely units to ride in as a passenger as they were basically wrll bult Mk1 coaches riding on B4 bogies.  The logest trip I did in one was Reading to Minehead on a Summer Saturday working but I travelled in them to & from work everyday for several years.

 

Far from reliable mechanically but nice and comfy for the passengers

[Halvarras]

1 minute ago, The Stationmaster said:

That smoke ias most likely from a heater unit.  These were lovely units to ride in as a passenger as they were basically wrll bult Mk1 coaches riding on B4 bogies.  The logest trip I did in one was Reading to Minehead on a Summer Saturday working but I travelled in them to & from work everyday for several years.

 

Far from reliable mechanically but nice and comfy for the passengers

 

27th November and clear skies - yep, I'm sure the heaters would have been on!