Advice needed for point and signal control

[mvrnut]

I am looking for advice as to how DCC Concepts Digital IP point motors, Cobalt S Levers, and Dapol motorized signals can be wired up so that movement of the cobalt S Lever will change the signal simultaneously with the point. 

It has been mentioned to me that TrainTech decoders could be used for the signals but I fail to see why that would be necessary.

Can the signals be wired direct to the IP point motor?

 

Cheers

Chris

[Nigelcliffe]

Depends which version of Dapol signals.   

Dapol had a period of stupidity in signal design - push button once to change signal, push again to change signal - which means that you can't use a switch (or contacts in a point motor) to change the signal to a known position.    Hence the use of external control devices to try to make sense of the silly design.  

 

 

[brossard]

27 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

Depends which version of Dapol signals.   

Dapol had a period of stupidity in signal design - push button once to change signal, push again to change signal - which means that you can't use a switch (or contacts in a point motor) to change the signal to a known position.    Hence the use of external control devices to try to make sense of the silly design.  

 

 

Pushing a button to change the semaphore would have suited me, but I suspect that would be 12VDC.

 

I have the 7mm signal and I wanted to use it with DCC so I got the TrainTech decoder:

 

 

I am fairly happy with it and the arm does bounce.  The only annoyance is I have to activate it via the NCE throttle.  Not so bad for the single one I have but I shudder to think how people would cope with 6 or so.

 

John

[Nigelcliffe]

11 hours ago, brossard said:

......

 

I have the 7mm signal and I wanted to use it with DCC so I got the TrainTech decoder:

 

...

 

I am fairly happy with it and the arm does bounce.  The only annoyance is I have to activate it via the NCE throttle.  Not so bad for the single one I have but I shudder to think how people would cope with 6 or so.

 

If you have "lots" and an NCE system, then these options exist (and probably a few more): 

 

a)  NCE minipanel, takes on/off switches or push-buttons (pair) as inputs to control the signals.  Can also control other things

b)  Computer interface and any number of alternative control interfaces.  

c)  Various DCC-Concepts add-on devices to offer control over NCE cab-bus.  

 

 

 

[Happy Hippo]

If you want to be 100% correct, your signals should not be pulled off until the road has been set.

[RAF96]

You have to be content that the point has changed before setting the signal, as opposed to having been selected to change. The only way to be sure is to control your signal from a switch on the point motor.

[brossard]

4 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

If you have "lots" and an NCE system, then these options exist (and probably a few more): 

 

a)  NCE minipanel, takes on/off switches or push-buttons (pair) as inputs to control the signals.  Can also control other things

b)  Computer interface and any number of alternative control interfaces.  

c)  Various DCC-Concepts add-on devices to offer control over NCE cab-bus.  

 

 

 

Thanks Nigel, right now the single signal is manageable but good to know.

 

John

[mvrnut]

4 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

If you want to be 100% correct, your signals should not be pulled off until the road has been set.

Yes I realize that. What I was hoping to do was to maximize use of the DCC Concepts S Levers so that a pull on one point lever will also change the signal for that point. 

Perhaps I would need the DCC Concepts Alpha Encoder Unit to achieve this ?

I am using the NCE Power Pro DCC system.

Cheers

Chris

Edited December 15, 2023 by mvrnut
more info.

[Nigelcliffe]

2 hours ago, mvrnut said:

Yes I realize that. What I was hoping to do was to maximize use of the DCC Concepts S Levers so that a pull on one point lever will also change the signal for that point. 

Perhaps I would need the DCC Concepts Alpha Encoder Unit to achieve this ?

I am using the NCE Power Pro DCC system.

Cheers

Chris

 

The problems you have are all at the Dapol signal end due to Dapol's quirky control method.   Adding more stuff (DCC Concepts Encoders) at the human input end won't help.  

 

Specifically:   which Dapol signal do you own ?     

 

 

If it is one of the types which need a single push button (push once to move, push again to move the otherway), then there may be a way with the DCC Concepts levers, but its more wires from lever to signal. 

The DCC Concepts S-levers have passing contact switch - intended to operate a solenoid turnout motor.   Those outputs could be used to move the signal;  you need to combine both directions of passing-contact.       If the signal gets out of step with the lever, you also need a "reset" push button also connected to the control wire, which push-once will bring the lever position back into line with the signal.   

 

 

Alternatively, you need some of the electronic methods mentioned, which gets around Dapol's quirky/daft/bonkers method of control.     Its a fairly simple DIY electronics project to take the output from the Cobalt switches and use those to cause an appropriate pulse to operate the Dapol signal.  

 

 

 

[mvrnut]

1 hour ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

The problems you have are all at the Dapol signal end due to Dapol's quirky control method.   Adding more stuff (DCC Concepts Encoders) at the human input end won't help.  

 

Specifically:   which Dapol signal do you own ?     

 

 

If it is one of the types which need a single push button (push once to move, push again to move the otherway), then there may be a way with the DCC Concepts levers, but its more wires from lever to signal. 

The DCC Concepts S-levers have passing contact switch - intended to operate a solenoid turnout motor.   Those outputs could be used to move the signal;  you need to combine both directions of passing-contact.       If the signal gets out of step with the lever, you also need a "reset" push button also connected to the control wire, which push-once will bring the lever position back into line with the signal.   

 

 

Alternatively, you need some of the electronic methods mentioned, which gets around Dapol's quirky/daft/bonkers method of control.     Its a fairly simple DIY electronics project to take the output from the Cobalt switches and use those to cause an appropriate pulse to operate the Dapol signal.  

 

 

 

I think the signals are the original stupid design ones, needing a momentary pulse to operate. 

Would a Train-Tech decoder work in between the S Levers and the point motor or between the point motor and the signal?

I think its SC300 decoder.

Cheers

Chris

[Nigelcliffe]

14 minutes ago, mvrnut said:

I think the signals are the original stupid design ones, needing a momentary pulse to operate. 

Would a Train-Tech decoder work in between the S Levers and the point motor or between the point motor and the signal?

I think its SC300 decoder.

Cheers

Chris

 

The trainTech SC300 is a DCC decoder, so goes on the DCC signal, responds to DCC commands.  Which I don't think you currently have if you are directly driving turnout motors from switch levers.    It would appear to be an expensive way to control one signal.  

 

This approach with a relay and capacitor (or relay, capacitor and four diodes) looks simpler and a lot cheaper.  It could attach to the on/off switch in the Cobalt motor, or to one of the switch contacts on the Cobalt lever.   
https://modelrailmusings.weebly.com/Dapol-signals.html

 

 

 

[ColinK]

It might be easier if you used the non-digital point motors.  Suggest you contact DCC Concepts.

[mvrnut]

Thanks for all the replies.  My layout is DCC controlled by NCE Power Pro, hence my reason for already having Digital IP point motors. 

I think I have found a way to incorporate the Cobalt S Levers ant the Dapol motorized signals.

 

Cheers

Chris