Lion and wheel emblem - LMR electrics

[Tony P]

Hello everyone

 

I am new to the forum and I have not posted before.

 

I am building a layout roughly following the TOPS transition  of 1973/4. I have the Bachmann AL5 E3056 which is rail blue with FYE but has the cast lion and wheel emblem. I had it in my head that a few LMR electrics were still carrying these, as opposed to cast double arrows, as late as 1972. But am I mistaken. I've looked and searched but been unable to find confirmation of this. Does anyone here know the answer?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Tony

[rodent279]

I'd be surprised if any got as far as TOPS renumbering with lion & wheel emblem.

I think the AC electrics were early in the renumbering program.

 

(Stands back waiting to be proved wrong!)

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Quite a lot of a.c. electric locomotives were still carrying cast aluminium E-numbers in your period, but I think they had all lost the lion and wheel emblem by then.

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

A few AL5's had full yellow ends and cast L & W emblems, from memory the Bachmann one is one of them.

 

Mike.

[wombatofludham]

I was at primary school in 1972 which was next to the main Trent Valley line in Staffordshire, and by then all the electrics had cast metal double arrows instead of the ferret and dartboard.  Some locos were carrying the new TOPS numbers but some still carried the cast E numbers, I remember the first TOPs numbered loco I saw was 86201, later renumbered 86101 and was the first to have the trial Class 87 bogies.  I saw this during a lunchtime trainspotting session up the top of the school playing field so it would have been in 1972.  By 1973 the TOPs re-numberings had progressed so rapidly they were in the majority.

One other thing to be wary of is the fitting of air brakes to Class 85 as this led to the air bottles on the roof.  At the same time the drainage slots over the cab windows were filled in and a gutter fitted to the side so it's probably worth checking Flickr and any textbooks to try and get an idea as to when these changes took place.

[Halvarras]

E3056 was renumbered 85001 in June 1974. I have the 1974 Ian Allan combined volume, the first one published with TOPS numbers, and all of the AC electric locos shown in it have TOPS numbers and double arrow logos.

 

The first loco type to gain TOPS numbers was Class 76, commencing with 26050/76050 on 14th November 1971. Next were Classes 83/84 during 1972 with a few stragglers into 1973 - these two designs had suffered persistent and serious technical faults and the delivery of 100 Class 86s had allowed these 25 locos to be placed in long-term storage at Bury during 1967/8; however when the WCML electrification extension between Weaver Junction and Glasgow was authorised  but new locomotives limited to just 35 Class 87s, the 83s & 84s were dragged out of storage and refurbished for further use on the extended electrified railway, this work including the application of TOPS identities ahead of the rest - the bulk of Classes 81, 82 & 85 were renumbered during 1974, with a handful in the years either side - much like the diesel fleet.

 

If your enquiry involves Class 85s displaying a combination of new TOPS numbers and old L&W crests my guess would be, unlikely by 1974 - but the subject of BR locomotive liveries is sprinkled with oddball survivors so I wouldn't rule it out, unless somebody out there knows for certain (and ideally has a photo to prove it 😉!)

[wombatofludham]

You might find this photo, not mine but from Flickr, of interest as it shows E3056 at Coventry in 1973 still with E numbers but with air tanks on the roof.  What it does show is one Class 85 with the drainage slots filled on the left, but 3056 still has them above the windows
E3056 Coventry 1973 from Flickr

Edited December 23, 2023 by wombatofludham

[Tony P]

That's really helpful. Thank you. My records from 72 show sightings of AC electrics with the original cast numbers. It looks like I'm going to replace its L&W with cast arrows, as the photo of E3056 shows

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

E3080 made it into the early 70s with a cast l&w emblem.

 

Mike.

[wombatofludham]

21 hours ago, Tony P said:

That's really helpful. Thank you. My records from 72 show sightings of AC electrics with the original cast numbers. It looks like I'm going to replace its L&W with cast arrows, as the photo of E3056 shows

It is possible to buy a set of roof mounted air tanks as fitted to E3056 in the photo from Shapeways.  I've not used them so don't know what they are like, but if you are interested they are at 

Shapeways air tanks

[Halvarras]

17 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

E3080 made it into the early 70s with a cast l&w emblem.

 

Mike.

 

Thought that was worth a quick search to see if the crest made it past TOPS on this one, but no - two shots found as E3080 with cast arrows just weeks, or even days, before it gained its new ID (85025). Oh well.....