Household coal traffic - 1950s, outside of coal-producing areas

[009 micro modeller]

I was prompted to ask this question having read the other thread on loco coal. On my current micro layout (shunting puzzle) project I will have a yard with various individual wagons being formed and re-formed into trains and going in and out (a bit like an Inglenook shunting layout). I was hoping to include some coal traffic. At the moment I’m intending that the layout will be set in a rural area, and probably not one where coal is locally produced, so coal traffic is most likely to be incoming and consist of coal for domestic use (rather than railway/industry/gasworks etc.).

 

The way that I’ve seen this modelled on pre-Nationalisation layouts (and as shown in photos of a similar period) often involves a corner of a goods yard, perhaps with some bunkers made out of metal sheet, old sleepers etc. to store the coal after unloading. There are private owner wagons, sometimes lettered for more than one company if it’s a larger area with competing coal merchants. Wagons might come as part of a pick up goods, or possibly in full trainloads if very large quantities are involved (not that they would be in my case). However, I’m wondering how it should look on a 1950s layout, i.e. after the nationalisation of both the coal industry and the railways. I was thinking of having the coal arrive in a 16 ton mineral wagon, but I think the issue is whether the end users of domestic coal would still have bought it from a local coal merchant (who themselves bought it wholesale from the NCB) or more directly? I’m assuming the former (especially in non-colliery areas) but wasn’t sure. Similarly a family member of mine who still bought household coal (for a small fireplace) until about 3 or 4 years ago had it delivered by lorry by a local coal merchant (bagged as well, I think, but this might be a more modern aspect) who I assume bought it from a mining company or wholesaler. 

 

On a similar note, would the ‘customer’ paying the railway for the movement of the wagonload be the NCB or the local merchant? I’m not sure this distinction really matters in terms of how you would operate a layout but it might be useful to know.

 

(If it makes any difference, my layout is actually going to be an independent narrow gauge line, carrying the BR mineral wagon (and other wagons) on transporters (a bit like the Leek & Manifold). But it’s still receiving wagons from the standard gauge national railway network, with coal sourced ultimately from the NCB. One difference might be whether a rural location on a minor light railway would bother to provide bunkers to store unloaded coal, or simply shovel it directly into a lorry or into a pile on the ground.)

[JimC]

Think you'll find most coal merchants started business from railway goods yards. Given half a chance merchants would hang on to a wagon and fill sacks direct from the wagon. Of course the railway didn't like that at all. 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I was prompted to ask this question having read the other thread on loco coal. On my current micro layout (shunting puzzle) project I will have a yard with various individual wagons being formed and re-formed into trains and going in and out (a bit like an Inglenook shunting layout). I was hoping to include some coal traffic. At the moment I’m intending that the layout will be set in a rural area, and probably not one where coal is locally produced, so coal traffic is most likely to be incoming and consist of coal for domestic use (rather than railway/industry/gasworks etc.).

 

The way that I’ve seen this modelled on pre-Nationalisation layouts (and as shown in photos of a similar period) often involves a corner of a goods yard, perhaps with some bunkers made out of metal sheet, old sleepers etc. to store the coal after unloading. There are private owner wagons, sometimes lettered for more than one company if it’s a larger area with competing coal merchants. Wagons might come as part of a pick up goods, or possibly in full trainloads if very large quantities are involved (not that they would be in my case). However, I’m wondering how it should look on a 1950s layout, i.e. after the nationalisation of both the coal industry and the railways. I was thinking of having the coal arrive in a 16 ton mineral wagon, but I think the issue is whether the end users of domestic coal would still have bought it from a local coal merchant (who themselves bought it wholesale from the NCB) or more directly? I’m assuming the former (especially in non-colliery areas) but wasn’t sure. Similarly a family member of mine who still bought household coal (for a small fireplace) until about 3 or 4 years ago had it delivered by lorry by a local coal merchant (bagged as well, I think, but this might be a more modern aspect) who I assume bought it from a mining company or wholesaler. 

 

On a similar note, would the ‘customer’ paying the railway for the movement of the wagonload be the NCB or the local merchant? I’m not sure this distinction really matters in terms of how you would operate a layout but it might be useful to know.

 

(If it makes any difference, my layout is actually going to be an independent narrow gauge line, carrying the BR mineral wagon (and other wagons) on transporters (a bit like the Leek & Manifold). But it’s still receiving wagons from the standard gauge national railway network, with coal sourced ultimately from the NCB. One difference might be whether a rural location on a minor light railway would bother to provide bunkers to store unloaded coal, or simply shovel it directly into a lorry or into a pile on the ground.)

 

 

Most people still used household coal until the Clean Air Acts came in and central heating became the norm; before the war it would typically be delivered in 12T 7plank wagons, postwar the ubiquitous 16 steel mineral would be usual.  The merchant's premises would more often than not be a corner of the local station yard yard, before and after the war, and they usually continued to operate from the site even when Beeching closed the line.  Bagging in 1 cwt sacks by the merchant (mostly small independent businesses) was usual, with delivery by road (horse drawn flat beds giving way to lorries).

 

Manufacturing industry before the war generally used coal fired boilers to power machinery, though steam powered machinery gradually went out in favour of electricity after the war.

 

"Town" gas (made from coal) was usual with most decent sized towns having a gas works, this would generally have its own siding.  Town gas was replaced by natural gas (North Sea) relatively late.  It had to be phased in, since cookers etc needed to be modified.

merchants would order the types of coal they needed (through brokers/wholesales?) and pay delivery charges to the railway.  The process in the gas works also resulted in by-products such as coke which went out by rail (much lower volume of wagons).

 

The 16T wagon was by far the most common, but other capacities were used where they could be conveniently handled - both at the pit and by the customer.  Discharge might be by manual labour using the side doors or gravity through bottom doors, hoppers being favoured particularly in the North East.  The end doors were used where there were tipplers, particularly for shipping, although most vessels were diesel after WW2.

 

Transport from pit to customer would be block coal trains to a marshalling yard, where individual wagons would be formed with other general traffic to make up pick-up goods to final destination.

 

There was a late attempt using wagons labelled "House Coal Concentration to improve efficiency by introducing block coal trains to Coal Concentration Depots.   There is a thread about this elsewhere on this site

[Stoke West]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

 

Most people still used household coal until the Clean Air Acts came in and central heating became the norm; before the war it would typically be delivered in 12T 7plank wagons, postwar the ubiquitous 16 steel mineral would be usual.  The merchant's premises would more often than not be a corner of the local station yard yard, before and after the war, and they usually continued to operate from the site even when Beeching closed the line.  Bagging in 1 cwt sacks by the merchant (mostly small independent businesses) was usual, with delivery by road (horse drawn flat beds giving way to lorries).

 

Manufacturing industry before the war generally used coal fired boilers to power machinery, though steam powered machinery gradually went out in favour of electricity after the war.

 

"Town" gas (made from coal) was usual with most decent sized towns having a gas works, this would generally have its own siding.  Town gas was replaced by natural gas (North Sea) relatively late.  It had to be phased in, since cookers etc needed to be modified.

merchants would order the types of coal they needed (through brokers/wholesales?) and pay delivery charges to the railway.  The process in the gas works also resulted in by-products such as coke which went out by rail (much lower volume of wagons).

 

The 16T wagon was by far the most common, but other capacities were used where they could be conveniently handled - both at the pit and by the customer.  Discharge might be by manual labour using the side doors or gravity through bottom doors, hoppers being favoured particularly in the North East.  The end doors were used where there were tipplers, particularly for shipping, although most vessels were diesel after WW2.

 

Transport from pit to customer would be block coal trains to a marshalling yard, where individual wagons would be formed with other general traffic to make up pick-up goods to final destination.

 

There was a late attempt using wagons labelled "House Coal Concentration to improve efficiency by introducing block coal trains to Coal Concentration Depots.   There is a thread about this elsewhere on this site

The clean air act banned the use of bitumous coal in those areas so designated ,  which then used anthracite or patent fuels such as phurnacite , coalite etc in central heating systems , so basically changed where the supply originated .

[Sitham Yard]

15 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

 

 

 

Discharge might be by manual labour using the side doors or gravity through bottom doors, hoppers being favoured particularly in the North East.  The end doors were used where there were tipplers, particularly for shipping, although most vessels were diesel after WW2.

 

 

The majority of coal tipped into ships formed the cargo either for shipment to other parts of the UK or for export. The former was often put into rail wagons at the receiving port for distribution around the area.

Andrew

[Stoke West]

20 minutes ago, Sitham Yard said:

The majority of coal tipped into ships formed the cargo either for shipment to other parts of the UK or for export. The former was often put into rail wagons at the receiving port for distribution around the area.

Andrew

Exmouth received coal by sea which was forwarded to local stations as close as lympstone and as far as Alphington Road at City Basin Jn 

[009 micro modeller]

12 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

"Town" gas (made from coal) was usual with most decent sized towns having a gas works, this would generally have its own siding.  Town gas was replaced by natural gas (North Sea) relatively late.  It had to be phased in, since cookers etc needed to be modified.

I know (Berkhamsted for instance being a good example of a smaller works), although I think my layout will be sufficiently rural that it won’t be particularly near a gasworks and will mostly take household coal.

 

12 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

merchants would order the types of coal they needed (through brokers/wholesales?) and pay delivery charges to the railway.  The process in the gas works also resulted in by-products such as coke which went out by rail (much lower volume of wagons).

 

12 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Transport from pit to customer would be block coal trains to a marshalling yard, where individual wagons would be formed with other general traffic to make up pick-up goods to final destination.

Exactly - but my original question was how this (wagonloads being ordered by local merchants etc.) would have been changed by the nationalisation of the coal industry, compared to earlier periods?

[Stoke West]

41 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I know (Berkhamsted for instance being a good example of a smaller works), although I think my layout will be sufficiently rural that it won’t be particularly near a gasworks and will mostly take household coal.

 

 

Exactly - but my original question was how this (wagonloads being ordered by local merchants etc.) would have been changed by the nationalisation of the coal industry, compared to earlier periods?

What would change the merchant would take coal from his preffered pit or pits the same as before its only a name change by the supplier

[Cwmtwrch]

13 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

before the war it would typically be delivered in 12T 7plank wagons, postwar the ubiquitous 16 steel mineral would be usual

Peter Fidczuk [Modellers' BackTrackVol.1 No.5, Dec 1991/Jan 1992] did a very rough survey of wooden 13T and steel 16T mineral wagons in dated photographs, showing proportions of 80/20 in 1950/1, 50/50 circa 1955/6 and still 19/81 as late as 1960/1, so both could appear in domestic coal traffic up to 15 years after the end of WW2. Wooden ones were still sometimes visible after that, possibly as spoil carriers for the Engineers, but mostly in sidings awaiting scrapping.

[TheQ]

Many coal merchants did not hire space in the station yard for their coal. My family pre WW2 had 4 coal wagons, they'd drive the lorry up to the wagon, if for immediate distribution would be shovelled straight into bags and stacked on the lorry. If for store or bulk sales, it would be shovelled straight from wagon

to lorry  in both cases the wagon drop door would lay on the lorry flatbed.

 

all three coal merchants in our village used the above system, all having yards close to, but not on station property.

 

Wagons were unloaded very rapidly and returned to the mine for refilling, to avoid the demurrage charge for occupying the station yard.

 

1950s there were still a lot of ex private owner wagons in a very battered livery, with the nationwide wagon number painted on a patch on the wagon.

But delivery and dispatch was the same.

 

[RANGERS]

Not sure how relevant this is to earlier eras but as late as 1979 we had two merchants, both received coal by the wagonload attached to freights from Toton destined for the British steel plant, and one of which had their yard within the plant site, the other in the former station yard. It often looked a bit odd to have up to half a dozen 16t BR std minerals at the head or rear of a train of tube empties or BSC non-pool tipplers.

 

The wagons were detached from the main train and one lot collected by a BSC shunter to take into the site via the internal network, the other dropped into the BR siding adjacent to the yard headshunt to be transhipped directly into bags. With a load of about 8 tons in a wagon, that would equate to around 160 bags or about two lorry loads by weight. At the time both were using 7.5t Commer and Bedford TKs, though the merchant on the BSC site also used Commer bulk hoppers for coke deliveries. I’m guessing the one originated from the BSC coke ovens, I don’t ever remember seeing coke coming in by rail.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Exactly - but my original question was how this (wagonloads being ordered by local merchants etc.) would have been changed by the nationalisation of the coal industry, compared to earlier periods?

Right - that'a very s good place to start.  Coal merchants serving domenstic customers could get coal in three different ways - they could buy direct from a colliery, they could buy through a large coal factor who dealt with the colliery ad either offered a service for small coal merchants or sold under its own or a subsidiary' name, or merchants in a smaller way of business could buy from'through a lerger merchant who was in many respects acting as  coal factor.

 

The method of purchase (in some cases affected by railway company policy) decided what wagons might be used.    Collieries tended to have fleets of their own wagons and sometimes they would be used for domestic coal traffic;  they of course bore the colliery's livery and details.  Many coal merchants had wagons in their own livery - usually obtained through a method devised by the wagon builders called go hire-purchase where they paid what amounted to a hire fee for the. wagon until sufficient money had been paid and taken out of the total to fund the final purchase (yes hire-purchase was something developed by the UK wagon building industry although I'm not sre if they had actually invented it).  

 

In addition wagons could be hired but would then carry the name of the owner - usually a coal factor.  In some cases the railway company insisted that coal was carried in wagons which it owned and it provided the necessary facilities to handle those wagons at stations - the NER was the best know exponent of this approach.  Be aware also that railway company policy on wagon ownershipssometimes changed over the years.  

 

Some of the coal factors had huge fleets of wagons although most of them didn't solely deal with domestic coal and handled industrial and - much more commonly - shipment coal (i.e coal destined for ports for either bunkerage or export shipment.

 

Coal traffic clearances from collieries were dealt with in various ways and in some respects that depended on the market they served - for example many South Wales collieries specialised in Steam Coal and their main market was for bunkerage and shipment.  Thus they tended to clear large groups of wagions for a single destination at one time and these would be worked as a through load to storage sidings near the port where the wagons would 'wait order' to be called forward for loading to a ship.  Various of the South Wales ports had literally miles of sidings where wagons sat waiting the order to be brought forward to load a ship.

 

Domestic coal was rather different as a lot of it would be going to different consignees.  The usual method of working was for it either to be picked up by  booked trips serving the colliery or, once they had enough on hand or wanted to get it off their site, the colliery would ask the railway for an engine and brakevan to be sent to clear it.

 

These trains, which might also sometimes include coal for smaller industrial sites, went to a local marshalling yard where the wagons would be sorted to get them onto a train being made up to go to the marshalling yard which served their ultimate destination.  When the wagons reached that yard (sometimes with another intermediate remarshalling, or two on the way) they would be shunted into a local trip serving their ultimate destination.

 

Finally when theh trip arrived at each local goods or coal yard it served it would detach the wagons for that destination and carry out the necessary shunts (hopefully) to position the wagons for unloading and collect any empties.   This is an area of a lot of what might politely be termed 'b*ggeration factors'.  Coal merchants were notorious for running their business how it suited them and the most expensive thing they could do was put coal to ground - which in turn often meant that they would take coal of various different grades from wagons as it suited them thus using the wagons as a sort of warehouse.  This often meant that in order to position new arrivals wagons already there had to be shunted out of the way an d then put back.  And the same had p be done in order to shunt out the empties.

 

It didn't matter to the railway - in some respects - if a wagin belonging to somebody else wasn't emptied'  but it took up space in the yard so in order to discourage the practice a penalty charge called Siding Rent would be raised if a wagon was not emptied within a set time (usually two whole days after theh wagon was shunted into place).  Siding Rent was derisory compared with the price of coal - even when it was  cheap - so the canny coal merchant was happy to pay it for a few days if that suited his business.  If the coal was in railway owned wagons the charge was called Demurrage - which was a higher price than Siding rent - but the rate was still pretty derisory. (When i got involved in it in the late 1960s demurrage for 'ordinary wagons' was somewhere between 2 shillings (10p) and 2/6 (12.5 p) per wagon per day  at a time when house coal was around £1 -  £2 per cwt.   The price of house coal increased roughly twentyfold between the early years of the 20th century and the early 1960s;  I suspect that demurrage etc charges did not increase by the same sort of multiplier.

 

So there you are.  A typical goods yard dealing with house coal and coal for small industries would have a siding(s), or part of a siding, set aside for the job.  Wagons in taht siding might arrive daily at times of peak demand but less frequently when coal consumpion was lower.  Some wagons would invariably be part unloaded on any day (except in the depths of winter when they would be emptied more quickly).  Some would be empty waiting shunting and some would be loaded waiting to be touched.

 

Hope that helps a bit

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Right - that'a very s good place to start.  Coal merchants serving domenstic customers could get coal in three different ways - they could buy direct from a colliery, they could buy through a large coal factor who dealt with the colliery ad either offered a service for small coal merchants or sold under its own or a subsidiary' name, or merchants in a smaller way of business could buy from'through a lerger merchant who was in many respects acting as  coal factor.

 

The method of purchase (in some cases affected by railway company policy) decided what wagons might be used.    Collieries tended to have fleets of their own wagons and sometimes they would be used for domestic coal traffic;  they of course bore the colliery's livery and details.  Many coal merchants had wagons in their own livery - usually obtained through a method devised by the wagon builders called go hire-purchase where they paid what amounted to a hire fee for the. wagon until sufficient money had been paid and taken out of the total to fund the final purchase (yes hire-purchase was something developed by the UK wagon building industry although I'm not sre if they had actually invented it).  

 

In addition wagons could be hired but would then carry the name of the owner - usually a coal factor.  In some cases the railway company insisted that coal was carried in wagons which it owned and it provided the necessary facilities to handle those wagons at stations - the NER was the best know exponent of this approach.  Be aware also that railway company policy on wagon ownershipssometimes changed over the years.  

 

Some of the coal factors had huge fleets of wagons although most of them didn't solely deal with domestic coal and handled industrial and - much more commonly - shipment coal (i.e coal destined for ports for either bunkerage or export shipment.

 

Coal traffic clearances from collieries were dealt with in various ways and in some respects that depended on the market they served - for example many South Wales collieries specialised in Steam Coal and their main market was for bunkerage and shipment.  Thus they tended to clear large groups of wagions for a single destination at one time and these would be worked as a through load to storage sidings near the port where the wagons would 'wait order' to be called forward for loading to a ship.  Various of the South Wales ports had literally miles of sidings where wagons sat waiting the order to be brought forward to load a ship.

 

Domestic coal was rather different as a lot of it would be going to different consignees.  The usual method of working was for it either to be picked up by  booked trips serving the colliery or, once they had enough on hand or wanted to get it off their site, the colliery would ask the railway for an engine and brakevan to be sent to clear it.

 

These trains, which might also sometimes include coal for smaller industrial sites, went to a local marshalling yard where the wagons would be sorted to get them onto a train being made up to go to the marshalling yard which served their ultimate destination.  When the wagons reached that yard (sometimes with another intermediate remarshalling, or two on the way) they would be shunted into a local trip serving their ultimate destination.

 

Finally when theh trip arrived at each local goods or coal yard it served it would detach the wagons for that destination and carry out the necessary shunts (hopefully) to position the wagons for unloading and collect any empties.   This is an area of a lot of what might politely be termed 'b*ggeration factors'.  Coal merchants were notorious for running their business how it suited them and the most expensive thing they could do was put coal to ground - which in turn often meant that they would take coal of various different grades from wagons as it suited them thus using the wagons as a sort of warehouse.  This often meant that in order to position new arrivals wagons already there had to be shunted out of the way an d then put back.  And the same had p be done in order to shunt out the empties.

 

It didn't matter to the railway - in some respects - if a wagin belonging to somebody else wasn't emptied'  but it took up space in the yard so in order to discourage the practice a penalty charge called Siding Rent would be raised if a wagon was not emptied within a set time (usually two whole days after theh wagon was shunted into place).  Siding Rent was derisory compared with the price of coal - even when it was  cheap - so the canny coal merchant was happy to pay it for a few days if that suited his business.  If the coal was in railway owned wagons the charge was called Demurrage - which was a higher price than Siding rent - but the rate was still pretty derisory. (When i got involved in it in the late 1960s demurrage for 'ordinary wagons' was somewhere between 2 shillings (10p) and 2/6 (12.5 p) per wagon per day  at a time when house coal was around £1 -  £2 per cwt.   The price of house coal increased roughly twentyfold between the early years of the 20th century and the early 1960s;  I suspect that demurrage etc charges did not increase by the same sort of multiplier.

 

So there you are.  A typical goods yard dealing with house coal and coal for small industries would have a siding(s), or part of a siding, set aside for the job.  Wagons in taht siding might arrive daily at times of peak demand but less frequently when coal consumpion was lower.  Some wagons would invariably be part unloaded on any day (except in the depths of winter when they would be emptied more quickly).  Some would be empty waiting shunting and some would be loaded waiting to be touched.

 

Hope that helps a bit

Thank you, that’s very helpful. Am I right in thinking then that the main difference in the 1950s compared to earlier periods would be the use of railway-owned wagons (given that, with a few specialist exceptions, former private owner wagons had been ‘pooled’) but the working methods would be roughly the same as before?

 

Interesting that they tried to avoid putting coal to ground (I assume because of the cost/effort of then shovelling it back up into a vehicle etc.?). So if there is storage, is it more likely to be a raised platform with coal bins rather than the sort of ground level arrangements sometimes seen for storage of aggregates? On the other hand, I notice on some of the more minor/light railways that there were sometimes no facilities for coal storage so it either had to be left in the wagons for longer, unloaded straight into a vehicle or unloaded onto the ground (for instance, and to get back to my transporter wagons, the standard gauge bits of sidings provided at intermediate stations on the Leek & Manifold didn’t usually have specific coal facilities; there must have been a bit of incoming coal traffic but perhaps not enough to justify this sort of thing).

[TheQ]

It's darned hard work shovelling coal, even it you have been doing it all your life. ( Which I haven't )

I've about 2 tons outside, but these days it's bagged " manufactured " coal to meet the latest emission regulations.

 

Ordering of coal was, in some ways, easier once the railways and coal sources  were nationalised.

You just ordered what you wanted , when it appeared you put it straight on the lorry then went and delivered it to customers pre orders. Only a comparitively small amount was kept in stock  for odd orders.

 

That's what you tried to do pre nationalisation, but you had to find the mines / contact agents to supply the coal you wanted, send your own wagons to go fetch etc.

 

Our coal storage was at ground level, in the north east of England, the larger depots had " hopper" arrangements where the coal wagons were at a high level to load coal into the hoppers and the lorries were down below.

Not seen stages at private coal suppliers , but some may have used them, the railways certainly used them themselves, to load coal into locos.

 

Iirc My families coal mostly came from the Forrest of Dean, but specialist coals such as anthracite would be ordered from elsewhere.

 

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

30 minutes ago, TheQ said:

Iirc My families coal mostly came from the Forrest of Dean, but specialist coals such as anthracite would be ordered from elsewhere.

From ‘free mines’ or larger collieries? The free mines remained independent.

 

31 minutes ago, TheQ said:

It's darned hard work shovelling coal, even it you have been doing it all your life. ( Which I haven't )

Yes, I thought it would relate to avoiding the need to shovel it (see also poorly-provisioned narrow/standard gauge interchanges with coal being shovelled upwards, for instance). But equally in other railway contexts I’ve seen coal (and aggregate) stored at ground level, even where it would have needed to be shovelled by hand.

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, TheQ said:

It's darned hard work shovelling coal, even it you have been doing it all your life. ( Which I haven't )

I've about 2 tons outside, but these days it's bagged " manufactured " coal to meet the latest emission regulations.

 

My maternal grandfather did it all his life - using pick and shovel underground.  Reserved occupation during WW2, meaning he couldn't enlist to fight for King & Country if he wanted to.  He was still working in the Northumerland pits after nationalisation although by then he had the help of NCB mechanisation.  There was a perk to his job though - free coal delivered to the house ... and to every other house in the street, it being a mining community where everybody did the same job.  This was delivered by road in a tipper lorry.  A series of piles of coal in the street, so everybody got out the wheelbarrow and shovel, took it down the passageway between the terraced houses, and stored it in a brick coal shed in the back garden.  As a boy, I helped, and yes it's hard work and we were merely shovelling it off a level tarmac road surface.  So nowhere near as hard as what grandpa did most of his life.  He retired aged 65, died at 66 - nearly 60 years ago.

 

 

[TheQ]

Larger Collieries I think,

 

My youngest sister still gets the coal allowance of her late husband , but these days it's converted to a cash allowance. That's up in central Scotland, Grandad on mum's side was a miner in Staffordshire, before being called up between the wars.

 

The earlier information I gave was from Wiltshire where we lived at the time... We used to get around a bit.. phoning Mum up in Scotland, from here in Norfolk shortly..

 

[Compound2632]

On 23/12/2023 at 20:03, 009 micro modeller said:

The way that I’ve seen this modelled on pre-Nationalisation layouts (and as shown in photos of a similar period) often involves a corner of a goods yard, perhaps with some bunkers made out of metal sheet, old sleepers etc. to store the coal after unloading. There are private owner wagons, sometimes lettered for more than one company if it’s a larger area with competing coal merchants. Wagons might come as part of a pick up goods, or possibly in full trainloads if very large quantities are involved (not that they would be in my case). However, I’m wondering how it should look on a 1950s layout, i.e. after the nationalisation of both the coal industry and the railways.

 

A lot of interesting answers here but I think to get to the nub of your question, the only visible change in the 1950s from pre-war would be that the wagon was railway-owned, rather than being either colliery-owned, coal factor-owned, local coal merchant-owned, or railway-owned, as before the war. 

 

Depending on when in the 50s, I wouldn't immediately leap for a 16-tonner. There were well over half-a-million wooden 10 and 12-ton wooden wagons at nationalisation (12-toners uprated to 13-tons during the war), both railway company and ex-private owner wagons and they didn't disappear overnight.

 

And those coal bins are a bit of a modeller's cliche. If the local coal merchant was renting stacking ground in the goods yard, it was most often just that - a stack.   

[009 micro modeller]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

A lot of interesting answers here but I think to get to the nub of your question, the only visible change in the 1950s from pre-war would be that the wagon was railway-owned, rather than being either colliery-owned, coal factor-owned, local coal merchant-owned, or railway-owned, as before the war. 

Thank you, that’s basically what I was looking for.

 

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Depending on when in the 50s, I wouldn't immediately leap for a 16-tonner. There were well over half-a-million wooden 10 and 12-ton wooden wagons at nationalisation (12-toners uprated to 13-tons during the war), both railway company and ex-private owner wagons and they didn't disappear overnight.

I agree - it won’t necessarily have to be a 16-ton wagon. For my transporter wagon micro layout project I essentially need 5 standard gauge wagons, in addition to the narrow gauge stock, and they need to be motorised (and therefore have loads to help hide the motor). So far I have a 7-plank wagon (Oxford Rail), but that’s already been converted and fitted with a gravel load. In addition I currently have a 13-ton wooden wagon (also Oxford Rail), an unbuilt kit for a ‘cupboard door’ 16-ton mineral (Parkside) and a more conventional bauxite (i.e. either fitted or through-piped) 16-ton mineral (Bachmann). The latter interestingly also came with a sheet/tarpaulin that fits over it, although I don’t know how accurate this actually is in appearance and shape. However, one of the wagons will probably need to be sheeted to represent a wagon carrying agricultural lime, although not necessarily that particular one. As a fitted wagon, I’m not sure it’s the most appropriate one for household coal either. Any ideas on which one is most plausible for which traffic? The fifth wagon (when I get it) will probably be some kind of van.

Edited December 26, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

And those coal bins are a bit of a modeller's cliche. If the local coal merchant was renting stacking ground in the goods yard, it was most often just that - a stack.   

I’m not sure I’ll actually have those. There may not be space anyway, and it seems slightly over the top for the setting envisaged.

[The Stationmaster]

On 24/12/2023 at 17:27, 009 micro modeller said:

Thank you, that’s very helpful. Am I right in thinking then that the main difference in the 1950s compared to earlier periods would be the use of railway-owned wagons (given that, with a few specialist exceptions, former private owner wagons had been ‘pooled’) but the working methods would be roughly the same as before?

 

Interesting that they tried to avoid putting coal to ground (I assume because of the cost/effort of then shovelling it back up into a vehicle etc.?). So if there is storage, is it more likely to be a raised platform with coal bins rather than the sort of ground level arrangements sometimes seen for storage of aggregates? On the other hand, I notice on some of the more minor/light railways that there were sometimes no facilities for coal storage so it either had to be left in the wagons for longer, unloaded straight into a vehicle or unloaded onto the ground (for instance, and to get back to my transporter wagons, the standard gauge bits of sidings provided at intermediate stations on the Leek & Manifold didn’t usually have specific coal facilities; there must have been a bit of incoming coal traffic but perhaps not enough to justify this sort of thing).

Coal could be better stored if there was a base - concrete or old sleepers - on which to stand it but putting it to ground meant double handling and also caused degradation and the mixing-in of dirt etc on the bottom of the stack.  Some merchants were no doubt not too fussy over that latter situation.  Our local yard worked for many years with no coal cells at all it all went from teh wagon t. be be weighed & bagged on the lorry.

 

And yes post nationalisation basically all coal wagons were BR owned (apart from a few in specialised industrial traffic).  In my view this was probably the biggest mistake made in the nationalisation process, including the quite large sums paid in compensation for wagons which were undoubtedly in very poor condition and definitely so for those with really outmoded running gear etc.

 

One effect of thise was for coal merchants to hang on to wagons more than ever - a particular thing being them buying in coal at NCB summer prices and then hanging on to it to sell at inter prices - keeping it in the wagons and even if paying demurrage still making a profit on the deal.

[Nearholmer]

Something to mention about 1960s, and where they survived that long 1970s, coal yards at stations is that many by then had a mechanical front-loader shovel on the site, either an early JCB or one of those adapted Ferguson tractors (maybe JCB stated with those), so coal was stacked in quite big heaps using that.

 

The small town (c10 000 people) that I grew up in had three coal merchants: Hall & Co who operated for deliveries from the station yard, and two locally-owned outfits, both of which operated from yards c1.5 miles uphill from the station and ‘bulk hauled’ up the hill, then delivered from their adjacent yards. Looking at the local history Facebook site, this bulk haulage had gone on for decades, way back into horse days, and had resulted in early purchase of heavy lorries. I think it was adopted to avoid the delivery horses getting fagged-out on the long steep hill up to the town, thereby shortening the rounds they could work. Hall & Co had to use cock/trace horses on their rounds.

 

Both at the station and in the yards up the hill by the green coal was stacked in large pens, mostly on the ground, but Hall& Co also loaded direct to delivery lorries from rail wagons sometimes - I remember seeing the guys with their bagging scales set-up on a trestle at wagon/lorry floor height.

 

I also recall coal shortages in the winter of 1963 caused by the coal freezing in the wagons, and a minor drama when one local “character” went a-raiding of other people’s coal bunkers at the dead of night. No master criminal this, because there was snow everywhere, and it wasn’t hard to follow his boot prints, so my father set booby-traps of string and bottles to create a great clattering, which put the old devil off from doing it again!

 

PS: latterly, the last surviving ordinary, as opposed to CCD, yards, had some coal in 20T (?) mineral wagons, the two door on each side ones, as well as 16T.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Fat Controller]

Have a look at this site: the coal drops at Hexham lasted until the 1980s.

[Cwmtwrch]

On 26/12/2023 at 14:19, 009 micro modeller said:

The latter interestingly also came with a sheet/tarpaulin that fits over it, although I don’t know how accurate this actually is in appearance and shape.

Difficult to comment on that without more information, such as colour, size and text. BR 1950s wagon sheets were flat, black, 21ft x 14ft 4ins, and carried "BR" above the sheet number at each end, with an issue date [mm/yy] in white and a return date in yellow on each side. They were sometimes put on upside down; the reverse carried a small inverted "BR" in the middle of each side.

[009 micro modeller]

24 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Difficult to comment on that without more information, such as colour, size and text. BR 1950s wagon sheets were flat, black, 21ft x 14ft 4ins, and carried "BR" above the sheet number at each end, with an issue date [mm/yy] in white and a return date in yellow on each side. They were sometimes put on upside down; the reverse carried a small inverted "BR" in the middle of each side.

I don’t have it to hand now but it does have some markings on it - a bit annoying in modelling terms if they should be changed regularly but still. But that’s relatively easy to fix anyway - I was thinking more in terms of the overall shape and size as it just fits over the top and doesn’t come very far down the sides, whereas on photos I’ve seen of sheeted wagons the tarpaulin comes much further down (admittedly I’ve not seen many photos of sheeted 16-tonners but it did happen).