Early diesel locos into Moorgate

[simon b]

Hi all, I'm trying to do a bit of research into which diesel locos could be used on moorgate service's via the widened lines.

 

I'm aware of the GN services using class 31's via King's Cross, but what else was there? Supposedly class 23 baby deltics worked into Moorgate briefly, but I've never seen a pic or any records to back that up.

 

Midland services via Cricklewood were in the hands of class 24's, I've seen a few pics of those. But again what else could turn up?

 

The disused stations site has a couple of pics that show what looks like a class 21, and possibly a 26/27. What services would they have been operating? I also read that 25's might have ventured down there?

 

Any info appreciated. Thanks.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Classs 26s worked ER trains from December 1958. They were quickly found to be overweight for Snow Hill, but it seems they carried on working to Moorgate till they were transferred to Scotland in 1960 (I think).

 

NBL Class 21s worked ER trains in about 1959, although probably for not very long. I have seen several mentions of Baby Deltics being banned because of the fumes, which presumably means that they must have been used a few times. Class 31s appeared in 1960 (I think), and my guess is that nothing else was used after this.

 

On the LMR, Metrovic Co-Bo class 28s were used in 1960 alongside steam locomotives, but were quickly replaced by class 24s, which in turn were replaced by class 25s (I'd be interested to know how late the 24s worked into Moorgate). In 1962, the 25s were joined by class 27s, and the Derby Sulzers site has several class 27 diagrams with loco numbers and dates on this page:  https://www.derbysulzers.com/class26.html

(Ignore the sentence about 27s not being fitted with tripcocks, since they clearly were). LMR loco haulage ended in 1968.

 

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, simon b said:

Hi all, I'm trying to do a bit of research into which diesel locos could be used on moorgate service's via the widened lines.

 

I'm aware of the GN services using class 31's via King's Cross, but what else was there? Supposedly class 23 baby deltics worked into Moorgate briefly, but I've never seen a pic or any records to back that up.

 

Midland services via Cricklewood were in the hands of class 24's, I've seen a few pics of those. But again what else could turn up?

 

The disused stations site has a couple of pics that show what looks like a class 21, and possibly a 26/27. What services would they have been operating? I also read that 25's might have ventured down there?

 

Any info appreciated. Thanks.

Locomotives that were authorised to travel over the widened lines had to have a London Transport Trip Cock fitted, if they passed a signal the trip cock would activate the brakes.

 

Classes so fitted

Class 15, both for GNR services, mainly freight to SR via Snowhill and GER freight on the East London line.

Class 16  GER freight on the East London line.

Class 21 GNR passenger services.

Class 23 GNR passenger services.

Class 24 both MR and GNR passenger services to Moorgate and freight to SR via Snowhill.

Class 26 GNR passenger services (?)

Class 30 & 31GNR passenger services and GER freight on the East London line.

 

Class 33 worked freight trains from the SR via Snowhill, to do so they needed a London Transport pilotman . A LT pilotman was required for all locomotives or units without a trip cock hence on very rare occasions an LMR class 25 or 27 would substitute for a class 24. (See Jeremy's post)

 

Classes 21, 23, 26 and 30 were to heavy for freight to the SR via Snowhill, only classes 15 and 24 were permitted. I am not sure if this was revised later and class 30s were allowed on this route after the class 24 were transferred off the GN and MR lines.

I am not sure if any of the GER based 21s and 24s were fitted with trip cocks.

Classes 15, 16 and 30 all worked excursion trains via the East London Line.

 

DMU classes, 

Cravens 105 on GNR services, they did work in multiple with Met Cam 101s and Gloucester 100s but one unit had to have a trip cock fitted.

Cravens 112 and 113 on MR services.

Derby 116 on MR services, worked as four car trains with 3 power cars and 1 trailer, sometimes 2 DMBS and 1 DMS  other times 1 DMBS and 2 DMS. At one point in time a Gloucester 122 single car DMBS was at Cricklewood and worked in trains made up of class 116 units.

 

Class 127 in the 1960s had above the doors a route map which included the Moorgate line (and the Barking line) but I am not sure if any went to Moorgate.

GNR based 116s and 125s were too long for the curves in the GNR tunnels connecting to the Widen Lines.

 

49 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

On the LMR, Metrovic Co-Bo class 28s were used in 1960 alongside steam locomotives, but were quickly replaced by class 24s, which in turn were replaced by class 25s (I'd be interested to know how late the 24s worked into Moorgate). In 1962, the 25s were joined by class 27s, and the Derby Sulzers site has several class 27 diagrams with loco numbers and dates on this page:  https://www.derbysulzers.com/class26.html

(Ignore the sentence about 27s not being fitted with tripcocks, since they clearly were). LMR loco haulage ended in 1968.

 

Hi Jeremy

 

I was just about to post the above when I noticed you had replied.

Clearly from the recorded sightings most the LMR based Class 27s worked into Moorgate. I have just done  Flickr search and have not found one fitted with what looks like a trip cock. I am now very confused. As it was a regular working was there a regular LT politman?

 

I did not know that the Metro-Vic Co-Bos worked to Moorgate.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Thank you @Clive Mortimore. Perhaps the class 27s weren't tripcock fitted after all, but they seemed such frequent visitors to Moorgate that I assumed they were. The Derby Sulzers site also implies that class 24s were little used for LMR Moorgate workings after class 25s became available. I notice that the Derby Sulzers class 24 page only has records for Eastern Region tripcock fitted locomotives (none of which went to the LMR before 1966), and of course the classes you mention are all Eastern Region. What records are there of LMR tripcock-fitted locomotives?

 

Moorgate workings were included in the original class 28 diagrams when they worked the Condor, so I assume they actually made it to Moorgate, but I haven't seen any hard evidence. They weren't in London for very long, of course. 

[simon b]

Thanks for the replies, that's quite a list of locos to choose from. 

 

The 127 dmu's is an interesting one, in theory they could have reached Moorgate but I've never seen evidence that they did. I wonder if they were found to not be powerful enough for the gradients on the line? I assume that is why the 116's were used with 3 power cars?

 

Were the 26's used as well as the 27's?

 

The class 101 is also a new one to me, were any of those tripcock fitted?

 

Cheers.

 

[RANGERS]

A pal of mine was a driver at CW in the pre-electric days and from what I can recall of his memories of working to Moorgate, the 127s were out of gauge for the Moorgate line (roof profile and vents?) whereas the 116 and 125 were both permitted to work over the MML connection, though  in practice the 125s rarely did.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

1 hour ago, simon b said:

Were the 26's used as well as the 27's?

Not on the Midland, which never had any, as far as I know. The 26s went to Scotland in about 1960, but before this the early ones were allocated to Hornsey and were intended to work Moorgate trains, which they almost certainly did.

[Clive Mortimore]

54 minutes ago, simon b said:

Thanks for the replies, that's quite a list of locos to choose from. 

 

The 127 dmu's is an interesting one, in theory they could have reached Moorgate but I've never seen evidence that they did. I wonder if they were found to not be powerful enough for the gradients on the line? I assume that is why the 116's were used with 3 power cars?

 

Were the 26's used as well as the 27's?

 

The class 101 is also a new one to me, were any of those tripcock fitted?

 

Cheers.

 

Hi Simon

 

Class 101s would have worked with a Cravens in multiple as the Cravens would have been trip cock fitted. As far as I am aware all Moorgate trains were four or (mostly) six car workings. I have seen photos of both Met-Cam and Gloucester units at York Road heading to Moorgate. 

 

Class 26 seem to have been fitted, if the pipe I have circled is the pipe to the trip cock. This pipe does not show up on the locos after being banished the other side of Harridan's wall.

Image from Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/47104274@N05/51042695196/

 

It can also be seen on D5313 https://www.flickr.com/photos/tunnel_one/50179617507/

 

Until I done this Flickr search I never realised so many of these had been persevered

 

[Clive Mortimore]

Image from https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/uploads/127/1600/class-127-dmu-1593828005-1600.jpg

 

Route map inside the class 127s showing Moorgate but there is no evidence they worked into Moorgate.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Clive Mortimore

[Peter Kazmierczak]

As Clive wrote in his comprehensive post, BRCW Type 3s worked freights via Snow Hill, though how regularly I don't know. There is a photo of one such working heading past the loco yard at KX in (I think) an old Locospotters' Annual.

[simon b]

Thanks for the info gentlemen. I've just spent alot longer than expected on the leighton logs website, quite the rabbit hole that site is. 

 

So the 21, 26 and 28 went north early on so I'll rule those out, if I pick 1966 as the year that seems to give the most varied choice of locos to use. Class 24, 25, 27, 31, and with a bit of modelers license class 23.

 

On the dmu side 1966 gives me 105's, but the 116 came later so those are ruled out. Perhaps a 125 at a push. 

 

Have I got that about right?